[alatar]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Sacrifice and suicide are patently different beasts, separated by the motives which precipitate their advent. On one hand, a willingness to pay the ultimate price in furtherance of some righteous goal, or in protection of another, ennobles the act. On the other hand, suicide accomplishes only the cessation of emotional pain for the deceased, often leaving far more grievous emotional pain in its wake. It can thus be characterized as selfish and cowardly. Again, from a religious standpoint, the argument might be made that a more righteous man would turn to God for, if not relief from woe, strength to overcome it.

Well explained. In your opinion, when Faramir, Denethor II's son, went to bar the passage of the river, was this attempted suicide? Or sacrifice? Wasn't his motive to gain his father's respect (finally), or find an end to his despair? When Eowyn, 'spurned' by Aragorn, went into battle to seek death, was this not attempted suicide? Her motive was to end her (what she thought was) a caged in, just above the dirt and reek inglorious life.

Both had suffered losses, were in fantastic situations - well, of course - meaning that these days weren't like most others. Faramir had been under the Shadow as well. Both tried 'death by orc' as the means, and were unsuccessful in their attempts. Do we think poorly of them? Any talk of their 'sin?'

Niniel was in the same situation as the two examples above, and happened to choose a more effective method.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, interesting thought in any case, but I think eventually not a right one.

Wouldn't be the first time...

If Nienor was really thinking that way, then I would call her behavior foolish. Because that is a totally twisted logic. It is the same as when some people make suicide as to avoid the "cruel world". The fact that the child could be used as a "weapon" by Morgoth could be a good reason if Nienor had a proof of that, but she didn't. If she was thinking about it, like you say, rationally, then she jumped to conclusions and gave up a bit too soon.

She was in the state of despair, having lost her husband/brother, and knew how bitter the lives of the Children of Hurin were. How could she think that, were she to go somewhere (where?) and bear her child, that this child would not be subject to the same bitterness, if not more so?

But I don't believe she was thinking that way. I think she was just desperate and acting mainly irrationally, overwhelmed by despair. I don't think she was in the mood to spin any complicated theories. "I am doomed, we are all doomed, we are all cursed, Túrin happy to be dead, wish I were dead too" - quite easy train of thought turned into a deed. Nothing unusual there.

Agreed. I just added the 'Dark Child' idea as it could have been an interesting contrast to the scions of Huor.

As for seeing suicide as sinful in Middle-Earth, though, I would still assume Tolkien holding it as sinful even in Middle-Earth. Well, "sinful", I haven't seen much of a definition of "sin" in Middle-Earth, but certainly something rather wrong and something normal healthy and sane people would not do.

Most of Turin's actions fail those tests.

Okay, you have the "almost-Church terminology" here ("heathen kings"), but obviously a person who wants to commit a suicide is likened here to somebody under the domination of the Dark Power, slaying himself "in pride and despair". So Gandalf says it actually in a rather radical way.

In law, I think that there is a distinction between 'crimes of passion' and those that are premeditated. Niniel did not build herself a pyre and make a big spectacle.

However, one important point I would like to raise here is that the tale never concludes these stories with any grim notes condemning those people. It is not that Narn or the Red Book would tell the people of Middle-Earth "do not commit suicide" and making examples of Denethor and Nienor and Túrin (and Maedhros, although he was an Elf, so maybe somewhat different rules apply), they just portray suicide as a desperate tragic act, implying logically that it should be avoided, but not saying that it is anything deserving any further punishment: the talk of punishment is completely out of the scope of these stories.

Agreed. Count in those lists those mentioned above who sought death yet did not find it at that time.

If Turin will be present at the Dagor Dagorath, complete jerk that he was, won't there be any grace for poor Niniel?

Pity those lost who wander down that dark road...