[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Words sometimes have specific meanings. Like patricide means 'killing Patrick.'


I was thinking about this. Those who stood beside Húrin, providing a rear guard so that Turgon could escape, knew that they were about to die. Standing, their task was to slow the advance of Morgoth's hordes. Sense would dictate that they flee, but they didn't. Not only had they made oaths to their King, but some may have known that they were sacrificing themselves so that there would still be a tomorrow, and one day, Morgoth's realm would fall.

Niniel, knowing now that her child was Turin's, may have believed that her child, being in the line of Hurin (not half, but from both sides), would allow Morgoth to continue his tortuous game with the next generation of this sorrowful family. In her despair, but also, like her family, in defiance of Morgoth, she sacrificed herself and the life of her child to thwart the Dark Lord's plans.

Who knows what life this child would have had? Thralldom? A Dark Child under Morgoth, used as a weapon against the Free Elves and Men?

Does this sanction suicide or homicide? Not in the least. This was a special person in special circumstances.

Didn't see anything proscribing suicide in Arda. Tolkien, being a Christian in our world, had other beliefs outside his created world. And it is believed that his God is a god of love and grace, which all surely need, even those like Niniel.

Well, interesting thought in any case, but I think eventually not a right one. If Nienor was really thinking that way, then I would call her behavior foolish. Because that is a totally twisted logic. It is the same as when some people make suicide as to avoid the "cruel world". The fact that the child could be used as a "weapon" by Morgoth could be a good reason if Nienor had a proof of that, but she didn't. If she was thinking about it, like you say, rationally, then she jumped to conclusions and gave up a bit too soon.

But I don't believe she was thinking that way. I think she was just desperate and acting mainly irrationally, overwhelmed by despair. I don't think she was in the mood to spin any complicated theories. "I am doomed, we are all doomed, we are all cursed, Túrin happy to be dead, wish I were dead too" - quite easy train of thought turned into a deed. Nothing unusual there.

As for seeing suicide as sinful in Middle-Earth, though, I would still assume Tolkien holding it as sinful even in Middle-Earth. Well, "sinful", I haven't seen much of a definition of "sin" in Middle-Earth, but certainly something rather wrong and something normal healthy and sane people would not do. Look at what Gandalf tells to Denethor. "The houses of the dead are no place for the living" is his greeting to him - meaning obviously both him and Faramir, you can easily see the general opinion behind it.

Quite plainly it is said here:

"Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death," answered Gandalf. "And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death."

Okay, you have the "almost-Church terminology" here ("heathen kings"), but obviously a person who wants to commit a suicide is likened here to somebody under the domination of the Dark Power, slaying himself "in pride and despair". So Gandalf says it actually in a rather radical way.

That said, this is not exactly the same as the case of Nienor. It is given by the basic logic of the tale those people are present in. Nienor's is ultimately dark and ends badly. Denethor could have seen the day of victory and, had he overcame his pride, even see quite happy days of bringing his Stewardship to fulfilment. However, one important point I would like to raise here is that the tale never concludes these stories with any grim notes condemning those people. It is not that Narn or the Red Book would tell the people of Middle-Earth "do not commit suicide" and making examples of Denethor and Nienor and Túrin (and Maedhros, although he was an Elf, so maybe somewhat different rules apply), they just portray suicide as a desperate tragic act, implying logically that it should be avoided, but not saying that it is anything deserving any further punishment: the talk of punishment is completely out of the scope of these stories. Obviously, as also any existence after death is completely out of scope and is utterly different from the life before it (shown in the fact that it is portrayed as uncharted and alien, but at the same time with affirmation of personal continuity and with the view towards the last Great Music. I must note here that I like it, because Tolkien's image of post-mortal life is, in a way, here lot more sober and "more Christian" than many latter, esp. medieval Christian depictions, in avoiding the overspammed images of post-mortal life. Maybe the people in Middle-Earth had in a way still just too clear contact with the divine - having basically eyewitnesses among themselves - to avoid the massive creations of images of post-mortal life, in contrary to our world. Although we are talking about the West here again, who knows if some Easterlings or Southrons didn't have their own invented mythologies).