[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Do you think Denethor would not have fallen, if the Ring had been in his grasp? It was his son Faramir's for the taking, if he'd wanted it. Even knowing the dire situation of Gondor, Faramir refused the Ring. Denethor would have readily claimed it, with full knowledge that it was a product of Sauron's craft, just as Boromir would have done.

I think, Denethor would have fallen, had he gained the Ring as it would have happened with everyone in Middle Earth save for Bombadil. Moreover, the Ring influenced Denethor even without being possessed.Those people in Middle Earth who wielded power, who were attached to power were in danger as soon as they were able to find out what the Ring was. Denethor believed that the prophesy required the Ring to be brought to Gondor. I think, he decided at that point that he was chosen to save Gondor and destroy Sauron via using the Ring. He lost all hope after the Ring had gone to Mordor.

How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Farmir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

There are good posts about that and I would just like to add that Denethor underestimated Faramir probably because of their likelihood. My understanding is that Denethor was never happy with himself and that was the root of his troubles. For this reason he could think that other people, including his own father, Ecthelion, were also excessively critical about him; the feeling that could make him opinionated and cold, which, in turn, is an obvious disadvantage for a leader. Thorongil's success made it all evident; on the other hand after his wife's death Denethor could have got a feeling of guilt and persistent depression. With all respect to his father Faramir could develop an understanding that even a person of highest status and authority could be wrong about some matters. That made Faramir look for external guidance, thus he started listening to Gandalf and became quite independent-minded (there could also be some influence from the other members of his family as Estelyn Telcontar and Faramir Jones explained above). To sum up, it looks as if Denethor's spiritual constitution, very fragile initially, made him seek support in such things as his status, blood, knowledge, duties etc. His moral consistency was based on external devices. Faramir respected those ideas as well, but his spirit was based on internal principles. If Denethor's too political attitude means this, I would agree. At the same time Denethor was able to withstand lots of troubles, remaining a person of honor, but when his devices broke down, his mind collapsed.

But the Númenóreans as a people were well conscious of their standing as the 'High Men' of Middle-earth. Faramir himself was not immune from it:

Quote:
We...can scarce claim any longer the titile High. We are become Middle Men, of the twilight, but with memory of other things.

The Two Towers The Window On the West

I'd agree that Faramir was not immune of such consciousness, but the quote also shows him considering the idea of High Men as a question of attitude rather than 'blood'. He told Frodo there had been a shift in virtues, so even people of high blood, who had been the keepers of high Numenorean knowledge for ages, were no longer seeking for any other achievements but military success, having become similar to 'middle men'. It seems, Faramir and Denethor shared the view that being a High man didn't mean just the origin, but observing lore and fulfilling high duties; one who fails doing it lessens. But what Faramir had found out was that the course of thoughts and actions could make a lesser person (even a hobbit) 'high' – something Denethor would have never agree with. This can be an example of Faramir's independent mind while Denethor' moral integrity depended on some social concepts and prejudices.

I can't ascribe Denethor's failings solely to class pride. Even as a child, Faramir had the wisdom to know Gandalf was someone to be trusted and listened to. Denethor was not welcoming to Gandalf, perhaps because 'Thorongil', who he'd seen as a rival, had advocated trust in Gandalf to his father, Ecthelion. Allowing perceived threats to one's power and prestige to colour one's views of a councillor seems a pretty political mindset to me.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I was interested in what you said here,

Denethor, while still opposing Sauron, falling into despair, was due to the latter being 'a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son'.

Again, it was Denethor himself who, due to a matter of honor, sent his son on a suicidal mission with no military significance in that situation. The tragedy of Denethor was that as long as he followed his principles, he was inevitably drifting towards defeat.