[Faramir Jones]

You're right about the extensive discussion, Bêthberry!

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As I said in my original post here, Tolkien did have training in Greek and Latin, but he left the classical world for English and philology. He was not an authority on the classics as he was in philology and medievalism and that is how Eden was attempting to portray Tolkien. It was, I suggest, evidence of imprecise vocabulary attempting to prove a point that could have more precisely and accurately been explained otherwise.

I agree that he was not an authority on the classics as he was on philology and medievalism, nor would he ever have claimed to be or be seen as such by others. In that context, Eden was misleading.

I would, however, regard Tolkien as a classicist by upbringing, even if he did not practice as an expert. The influence of his classical upbringing can be seen in his works, such as in the portrayal of the Valar, who are as much inspired by the Graeco-Roman gods as by the Norse ones.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My reference to Caedmon was also intended to demonstrate that Tolkien's knowledge of the oral tradition was not limited to, in Eden's words, "the trouvere/troubadour tradition in medieval music" (p. 60). And that, "Almost all of Tolkien's early work is done in the context of tales or stories as related or even sung to a listener or listeners" ( Eden, p. 60) applies as well to Old English, a language and a literature Eden never mentions, although he does mention the Finnish Kalevala and Icelandic sagas.

I fully agree that he left these things out.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Bilbo's Last Song is not in my copy of LotR. Nor, I believe, has it ever been included in an edition of LotR. It was written some time after LotR was published and quite a few decades after the early writings which Eden quotes.

What would you say is going on here between Tolkien's and Tennyson's poem?

While it is separate from LotR, it's obviously supposed to be a last poem by Bilbo before his departure from Middle-earth at the end of that book, presumably sung or recited at the Gray Havens.

According to Schull and Hammond's Reader's Guide, the poem was given by Tolkien to his secretary, Joy Hill, on 3 September 1970, and first published in 1974. Schull and Hammond say that the 'content and mood' of the poem 'call to mind' Tennyson's 'Crossing the Bar'. (Reader's Guide, p. 107) I therefore claim absolutely no credit for this comparison between the two poems, which has previously been made by many others.

In terms of what is going on here between the two poems, this is my opinion:

Similarities:

1. Both deal with a journey over a sea, with death involved. Tennyson is dealing with a journey after his death, while Bilbo is dealing with one that will take him to the Undying Lands, where he will shortly after die, due both to his great age, and such lands not being suitable for mortals to live in long.

2. Both are dealing with a journey through time and space. Tennyson speaks of travelling 'out our bourn [boundary] of Time and Place' (Line 13), while Bilbo, as we know, is going to the Undying Lands, which have been set apart from Arda since the end of the Second Age, saying 'lands there are to west of West,/ where night is quiet and sleep is rest'. (Lines 15-16)

2. The imagery of the Evening Star, whom we know is in Tolkien's universe Eärendil the Mariner, and of whom Bilbo wrote a poem in LotR, appears in both poems. Tennyson's poem starts with the line, 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo's finishing with 'I see the Star above my mast!', as well as mentioning in line 17 that he is 'Guided by the Lonely Star'.

3. The image of the sun setting, which starts both poems. Tennyson starts with 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo start with 'Day is ended, dim my eyes', and in line 6, he says, 'beyond the sunset leads my way'. In both poems, this is used as a metaphor for the narrators' lives drawing to an end. Tennyson also has a reference to twilight: 'Twilight and evening bell,/And after that the dark!' (Lines 9-10)

4. The image of the bar, which is in this context, according to The Oxford English Dictionary, 'A bank of sand, silt, etc., across the mouth of a river or harbour, which obstructs navigation'. Both poems speak of it as something important, both physical and metaphorical, to be crossed in their journeys. Tennyson's poem has crossing it as its title, hopes that 'there be no moaning of the bar,/When I put out to sea', (Lines 3-4) and ends with the hope that the narrator will 'see my Pilot [God] face to face/When I have crost the bar'. (Lines 15-16) Bilbo speaks of being guided by the Lonely Star 'beyond the utmost harbour-bar'. (Line 18)

5. The idea of the narrator being called to his voyage, both literal and metaphorical. Tennyson speaks of 'And one clear call for me!' (Line 2), while Bilbo speaks of 'Farewell, friends! I hear the call'. (Line 3)

6. Tennyson's poem was a late one, intended by him to appear as his last work, being included as such in collections of his poetry. (I myself have a copy of an 1899 edition of his poems, published seven years after his death, in which this is the case.)

Tolkien's poem was intended to be a last work by Bilbo before he left Middle-earth. It was also a late one by him, although in his case an adaptation of an earlier poem, Vestr um haf (Old Norse for 'West over Sea') from the 1920s or 1930s (Reader's Guide, p. 107), presumably written after LotR, but given to his secretary only a few years before his death, as already mentioned.

Differences:

Tennyson's poem has the narrator somewhat detached and passive, trying to comfort those he will leave behind: 'And may there be no sadness of farewell,/ When I embark;' (Lines 11-12) Bilbo, by contrast, is eager to be off on his voyage, with lines such as

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall. (Lines 3-4)

Farewell, friends! The sails are set,
the wind is east, the moorings fret. (Lines 9-10)

Ship, my ship! I seek the West,
and fields and mountains ever blest. (Lines 21-22)

While there are differences between the two poems, I feel that they are far outweighed by the similarities.