[Formendacil]

So... I had this post all written three hours ago... but then my Internet failed utterly and so Pitchwife totally beat me to it. I copy it anyway, since I give a different--canon-obsessed?--perspective with much the same answers.

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Originally Posted by Mugwump

Where are y'all getting all this info about the nature of the Istari and Melian? Outside of the "canon" (LotR & Silmarillion)?

Canonicity!

(A word of caution: Formy has been spoiling for people to get into a canonicity debate since high summer.)

I don't believe Tolkien ever wrote anywhere specifically about Melian's incarnation--hence the extrapolation and speculation by way of analogy to Sauron and the Istari. But Tolkien definitely wrote, extra-LotR about the Istari, and most of these essays are included as a chapter in section 4 of Unfinished Tales--which, I daresay, is at least as canonical as the published Silmarillion, which has the disadvantage, canonically, of being a synthesis (albeit an excellent and readable one) by Christopher Tolkien. The few bits and pieces on the Istari that didn't make it into the Unfinished Tales corpus were published in the final volume of the History of Middle-earth series, Vol. XII The Peoples of Middle-earth.

Now... as for how much of it is canonical... well, there are those who would say only The Lord of the Rings itself is. There are those who would extend it to cover as much of the HoME as they can.


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Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Form, thanks for improving on my post (and do I sense a mild correction of my flippancy there?)! Of course this thread has potential for interesting speculation, I didn't mean to deny that.

And I didn't mean to imply it--it just got me thinking. Always dangerous, that.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In the case of the Istari, it's difficult to tell where 'forbidden' ends and 'incapable' begins, or whether both were actually two sides of the same coin. We never see Saruman neglecting the conditions of his contract so far as to display his full Maiarin power - does that mean he still felt bound to the letter of it, if not the spirit, or does it mean he couldn't if he'd tried? On the other hand, did Gandalf use his full power in his unwitnessed battle with the Balrog? I'm afraid we'll never know.

Hmm... my inclination, right at this moment, is to say that the Istari weren't restricted, even juridicially, in how much power they could use in Middle-earth (hence when Gandalf fights the Nazgûl or the Balrog, he's letting loose), but that the rule was more that they had to maintain the charade of being Old Men, which would, of course, cause a certain amount of caution. I mean, it's only from the extra-LotR texts that we know the Istari are Maiar, and even when Gandalf's returning to West, it's still not clear what he was when he left there.

However, while it does seem to me that while a case can be made from Gandalf's actions--more so, even, as the Grey than as the White--that he's not really inhibiting his Maiarin powers, just his Maiarin form, by being a wizard, I'm not entirely sure....