[Boromir88]

Now why would we be any different as cousins to the other primates? If that behaviour is especially common in the other primates why would our behaviour stem from any different source - be it evil or good?~Nogrod

This got me thinking about little Max. I had to return back home for a week, as the parents are going away on vacation, and someone needs to watch the dog (actually the only watching that really needs to be done is to make sure sally doesn't come by and steal him ).

Anyway, I let him outside when I got home, and he doesn't need a leash, he stays within the yard, except of course when he spots an unwelcome (or perceived unwelcome) intruder. Today (or well yesterday by the time I am done with this post), it happened to be a deer. He spotted the deer and boom off he went.

So, basically Nogrod, you got me wondering about territoriality, and I also wonder if it has anything to do with self-interest. It's not solely a human idea, animals create their own territory, mark it, and defend it. Does having our own "space" - however large or small it is, fulfill our self-interests? For the little devil Maximillian (as I would imagine for any animal that marks its territory), when he spots something in his territory that he perceives is a threat, he will always bark, and most of the time chase after the threat, until the threat is no more. Whether he just chased the threat out of the yard, or chased after it until he lost sight.

Usually I do have to make an attempt to run after him, because there is absolutely no way I could ever catch him, but once I start yelling out "sit" or "get back here," when the threat is gone he runs back towards me and sits at my feet (as well as of course looking up at me fully expecting to receive "good boys" and lots of petting after returning). Why does he return? He has the capacity to know I can give him what he needs, a space, a place, love, and food (food is probably what he is most self-interested in ). And of course Max fulfills my own self-interest in having a dog who is obedient and can pretty much brighten my day anytime. Long story short, thank you Nogrod in getting me to think about why my little Max, has to go chasing after anything he sees in the yard.

Now, I promise that I did not want to take this way off the literary discussion, and the purpose of this forum, and that is to talk about Tolkien. So check out this transition (oh if I was writing a formal paper right now, I would get into so much trouble)

In getting to think about self-interest, whether that really is an "evil" thing at all, and if complete selflessness is even possible. I mean after all, if we extend kindness and love to someone aren't we trying to build a community and expect the same kindness and love in return?

All I can really know for certain is death and pain. That is we all have the capacity to cause death and pain, but with or without us, it exists and it is certain. It goes all the way down to the cellular level, cells need to die (or if we are talking about plants, decay). In order to rejuvinate and "grow," there needs to be death. And since everything has a life span, in order to survive and replenish, we must have the capability and desire to reproduce. As for pain, in order to learn that it is not a good idea to stick your head in a fireplace, you have to feel it (If you are wondering why I used that example...yes I did that before, but I was like 5 years old, give me some slack ). However, for the most part pain is temporary, and it serves our own self-interest to find relief for that pain, simply because as necessary as it is, we hate feeling it. How this entire cycle of death, pain, relief and reproduction got started, who can say for certain, I haven't the slightest clue?

Evil seeks only to perfect itself & then remain in that state, as, I repeat, is the desire of Tolkien's Elves - but not his men & Hobbits.~davem

Yes, I made note that you kept saying that, and always intended to respond to it, but never really knew how, because it's something I didn't think about, besides simply recognizing it. Now, I think I can.

All that I said about death being certain above, the interesting thing is, Tolkien did not make it certain for his Elves. Elves can die in battle, but as we know they are immortal, death for them is not certain. Ahh, but pain still is...so is their desire for perfection "evil," or is it simply a way to relieve their pain?

With Men (and the other mortal races) death is certain. And just to talk about Men here, how much can change within their lifetime? Maybe a lot of things, but somethings take a long time to change, even well past our own lifetime. If we look at Faramir, when what he desires from Gondor, it doesn't really sound like he wants something different. He wants Gondor to be restored back to it's glory days, just like Boromir. However, I think the difference with Faramir, and why he could reject the Ring, was partly due to his acceptance of change. Now, it's a lot different from what Eddings would probably imagine, because in LOTR there is a higher power. Faramir is aware of this, or at least he is aware that he can not control what happens to Gondor. He wants Gondor restored, but if it doesn't happen than the "higher ups" must know what they are doing. This is perhaps best displayed in Gandalf's talk with Denethor about being a Steward. Gandalf plainly tells Denethor, it's not only Gondor that he loves, but everything that grows and is good in the world, he is the "steward" of it all and will care for all...where Denethor is the "Steward of Gondor" therefor looks out for Gondor and a lot of the times, only Gondor.

Anyway, going back to death being certain for Men, and that is exactly why it should be considered a "gift." Whatever pain they feel will come and go, and maybe Men (such as Faramir) do not want change to happen, but if it does then Men can adapt. Change isn't always good, nor is it always bad, but for Men, if it is bad, at least it will be temporary and for them death will come.

That is simply not the case for Elves. This may be part of the split between Eddings' and Tolkien, I haven't read Eddings', but for Tolkien's Elves, pain is still certain but not death. The Elves desire to keep things as they were, does not necessarily make them evil, maybe it's their attempt to relieve their pain. What it does do is prevent them from changing, which means staying in Middle-earth is impossible. Galadriel used Nenya to preserve and prevent decay in Lothlorien. She was trying to make Lothlorien her own "undying land," but this is simply not possible in Middle-earth. The most she could do was slow time and slow decay. Perhaps that is why Middle-earth needs to be inhabitted by Men, it fits their very nature. Men will die, so it's only natural that everything else must come to an end. For Elves, they can't live in Middle-earth, they very well may live forever and as much as they might try to turn parts of Middle-earth into their own "undying lands," it is simply not possible.