I think this difference also becomes near to the classical feud between predetermination and the free will of people (creatures of any sort).
Can good be "selected" by people (and what does it mean if we are salvaged by the grace of God anyway) for real, or are our choices meaningless as they are a) random b) preordained c) insignificant?
Providence might be called to solve the problem but it actually makes it worse. If what happens has providence upon it, what will be the status of our individual choices?
A mind-banger if there ever was one... (Not the only one though)
On another issue.
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Originally Posted by Hakon
The way one views good and evil is the way they are taught to. If one is raised in a society that views murder and rape as a good thing than they view good as that and they view not doing that as bad. In our society we view it as murder and rape are evil. It is simply perspective. In LotR look at Saruman. He thinks he is doing the right thing by betraying Gandalf yet we view him as evil.
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You sound like me fifteen years ago (when I was graduating from the Uni.) - and I must admit your thought has credentials. It is reasonable and arguable that you're right. And with our mutual friend Nietzsche we could build a quite plausible worldview.
But being a bit older I am right now I tend to disagree. (My age is no argument, just something you can relate with.)
Have you read any recent studies on ethology lately? Most of the gregarious animals seem to have the thing we Westerners call the "Golden Rule" in their behaviour. They help those in need, are kind to each other and basically behave well towards one another (do not kill, do not ignore).
Now why would we be any different as cousins to the other primates? If that behaviour is especially common in the other primates why would our behaviour stem from any different source - be it evil or good?
Surely there are cultural differences - like there are with apes; different clans do things differently because of their "culture" - but basically we are primates, gregarious animals with our common instinct of being good to each other.
The evil then?
Have you ever read the book "Humanity" by Jonathan Glover? He makes a belivable case (with horrid examples) how we basically good people can be swayed from goodness and turned into violent beasts- but only with certain techniques. You really should read it. Anyone.
Just think of the following example. In the world-wars (I and II) something like half of the men never shot an enemy. When they were in the situation they could kill someone they shot high over the heads of their targets. Now why?
Well because any decent adult will not kill another person unless it's a question of direct and immediate threat to their own lives - and those few that have faced that situation we now handle as post-traumatic-disorder patients, because that is so tough, killing another human being!
The child-soldiers are a point to be remembered here. Why are they so effective and so used in Sub-Saharan Africa? Because they are malleable, because they can be made into killing robots as they don't have the the moral restrictions of the adults who will not kill others so easily.
Yes. I believe in goodness in all of us - not regarding emergency situations, in which many people also show altrustic behaviour (mind you!) - and it's just something we all thrive for.
I don't personally need God to solve it for us but I understand people who call for him to do that. Goodness is in us - whether you call it genetic, biology, culture, faith, personal decision... But it is there.
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Originally Posted by Gwath
I'm very glad to hear you disagree with Hakon regarding the existence of good and evil. But I don't understand where good can come from if it does not come from God? How could such a thing exist in an impersonal, arbitrary, random world unless we make it ourselves, in which case it cannot be held as any kind of monolithic measure at all, but is just as subject to whim as Hakon's socialized morality?
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The good is not a monolithic measure to be sure.
If you want a biological answer, I can give you one - or two indeed.
Just think of any group of gregarious animals. Think of groups A and B of the same species which behave differently. In the group A the individuals care for others and help each other in need and in the group B they only care for themselves and do not care of the others. Which one community you think will thrive over bad times? And which will be able to pass their genes forwards? Clearly the group B has no chance whereas group A has all the chances.
Think of yourself then. Would you like to marry a woman who is totally egoistic and only thinks of herself? I believe you don't. You'd like to have a loving and caring wife who is tender and caring of other people - like you. Now which genes get passed forwards; nice ones or bad ones?
So we evolve into better beings! (Just think of the status of children or women in the earlier centuries!) And we are good deep inside!
I know this view challenges the "primordial sin" -idea and I know it is a delicate issue with some people, but please give it a consideration anyway.
And as you
Gwath questioned where the good comes from, it comes from us the people - and from chimps as chimps - and from bats as bats!
The good is the rule of the universe (sorry relativists but you're wrong in this even if you can claim individual wins to your behalf)!