[Boromir88]

Just a couple points of discussion to bring up.

Rumil

Attack on Minas Tirith, I think huuuge numbers, but 80-90% of them comparativley useless orcs and snagas.

I disagree, Karen Fonstad in her Atlas of Middle-Earth does put out a conservative estimate of 45,000. It could have been more than this, because she was primarily basing it off of the 3:1, or 4:1 ratio (Sauron's forces vs. Gondor's and Allies). It was said that the Easterlings thrice outnumbered what the Rohirrim had set out with (6,000). So that places the Easterlings with 18,000.

Now she estimates the force that left Minas Morgul to be 20,000, which is a pretty good estimate because it was the 'largest force' that left the fortress since Isildur's time.

Then the unnumbered "reserves" that Gothmog throws in, is more of a filler number to keep the 3:1 or 4:1 ratio. So on the conservative a total would be about 45,000, the upper end probably 60,000.

It can't be larger than the army at the Black Gate, because that was Sauron's largest army. And I don't think there is much ambiguity with the "10 times and more than 10 times." Tolkien was very careful with his word selection, there was not one of his "600,000 words" that he did not go over and reconsider...and reconsider a third time. 70,000-80,000...has just been the more familiar one with me, anything above 100,000 is verging into PJ territory who took great liberty to inflate the numbers (especially orcs).

Sauron did not have an unlimitted amount of Orcs to keep throwing out there. At Minas Tirith, there were already 18,000 Easterlings, and Gothmog's reserves were all men. So, it would appear that the majority of Sauron's force at Minas Tirith were Men (and the Minas Morgul force would then be mostly - if not all - comprised of Orcs). Now there aren't specifics about the army at the Black Gate, other than being "10 times and more than 10 times." That could very well be mostly comprised of Orcs, but Sauron seemed to rely heavily on Men to make up his armies. At Minas Tirith and against the Dwarves, which was an entirely Easterling force.

I remember one of Kuru's threads a while ago, about Dwarves...hmm I should probably try to find it. But The Silmarillion does say:

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Estimating their numbers will be pretty hard, because I had the impression they mostly just ignored the "global" issues, sticking to themselves, except Durin's folk. However, we also know they were an extremely warlike race, so when they actually were spurred to fight, I would imagine every male in the colony would take up arms. This creates some problems with numbers, because despite few ever fighting for either side, when they actually did fight, they could gather everybody.

It would be a shame if Dain did give in to despair at the end, but the way the text is phrased it gives the implication of one who no longer has any expectation or desire of living and Dain doesn't seem like one to just simply be overcome by battle-madness.~Kuru

I agree. The text seems to indicate that not only was Dain a mighty warrior at his great age, but also an extremely competent (and effective) leader for the dwarves.

But Dain Ironfoot was a worthy successor. And now we hear that he fell fighting before Erebor again, even while we fought here. I should call it a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.~UT: The Quest for Erebor

A "worthy" successor for a dwarf I think is more than simply a dwarf who knows how to wield an axe. I will use Gondor as an example...Tolkien loved front-line leaders who were not hot heads, perfect example is Faramir. He did not look to highly at the "chateaux generals" (of WW1) who led millions of men to slaughter while they sat away from the front lines in their French mansions (Denethor or Sauron), and even though Boromir led from the front-line he was "rash and ever anxious..." two not so noble sounding qualities in a leader. The Dwarves always looked out for their own interests (as really I think most Men and Elves did too!), and I would imagine prefer a leader who can not only fight at the front with his men, but remain composed.

From what little we know of Dain, I always saw him closer to Faramir's quality of leadership. Not only did he lead from the front-line, but every decision was based upon upon the care of his soldiers and people...getting everyone into Erebor and falling at the gates looks more like a Faramir move (as Boromir tells the council it was him Faramir and two others were the last to hold the bridge before they blew it.) and not someone in a battle-frenzy. Some may think Dain's response to Sauron's messenger as "dragging his feet," but I always saw it as more of an attempt to honestly assess the situation they were about to face. Gloin says Dain feared King Brand would yield, and denying Sauron's messenger was simply a strategy to buy Dain (and the dwarves) time to consider their options.