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obloquy · 02-08-2009, 11:29 AM

Well fought, Morth.

Even your eloquent defense is unnecessary, I think, since davem's problem is entirely invented. He bemoans the dishonesty of depicting battle without its more horrible details, but Tolkien does not actually conceal the reality with some sanitizing miracle of the Valar--i.e. a description of the bloodless withering to dust of those slain as a special provision of Manwe. We know that these myths are written as some fantastical epoch of our own history, so the Men of Middle-earth are us, and supposably will gush blood and fall apart in exactly the same ways men do today--and do in George R.R. Martin novels*. Elves are physiologically identical to Men, and while there is perhaps more reason to expect with elves a magical fading in place of gory slaughter, Tolkien makes no such provision explicit. They, too, bleed red.

So, in answer once again to the question which davem has asked repeatedly, Yes, things (slaughter, sex, elimination, etc.) occur identically in Middle-earth despite that Tolkien omitted their details. When a person takes a wife, certain details of the next couple days are implied; when a person is smashed with a mace or slashed with a sword, other details are similarly implied; when a person so much as exists, still more very basic details are implied. None of these details need to be explicated for us to know that they occur. Further, unless some agenda is served by doing so, one might even expect an author to spare his readers such descriptions. This decision can only be called dishonest if one claims that Tolkien intended his audience to get some idea of the harsh reality of life and war. Instead, it seems apparent that while Tolkien did not deny the baser realities of the world, he chose rather to emphasize the potential for nobility and beauty.

*Had Tolkien chosen the tack of Martin, not only would there be plenty of guts, but surely Aragorn would have been the first character to be beheaded. How much different would LotR have been if gritty realism had been a part of the formula?

02-08-2009, 11:29 AM	#129
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Well fought, Morth. Even your eloquent defense is unnecessary, I think, since davem's problem is entirely invented. He bemoans the dishonesty of depicting battle without its more horrible details, but Tolkien does not actually conceal the reality with some sanitizing miracle of the Valar--i.e. a description of the bloodless withering to dust of those slain as a special provision of Manwe. We know that these myths are written as some fantastical epoch of our own history, so the Men of Middle-earth are us, and supposably will gush blood and fall apart in exactly the same ways men do today--and do in George R.R. Martin novels. Elves are physiologically identical to Men, and while there is perhaps more reason to expect with elves a magical fading in place of gory slaughter, Tolkien makes no such provision explicit. They, too, bleed red. So, in answer once again to the question which davem has asked repeatedly, Yes, things* (slaughter, sex, elimination, etc.) occur identically in Middle-earth despite that Tolkien omitted their details. When a person takes a wife, certain details of the next couple days are implied; when a person is smashed with a mace or slashed with a sword, other details are similarly implied; when a person so much as exists, still more very basic details are implied. None of these details need to be explicated for us to know that they occur. Further, unless some agenda is served by doing so, one might even expect an author to spare his readers such descriptions. This decision can only be called dishonest if one claims that Tolkien intended his audience to get some idea of the harsh reality of life and war. Instead, it seems apparent that while Tolkien did not deny the baser realities of the world, he chose rather to emphasize the potential for nobility and beauty. *Had Tolkien chosen the tack of Martin, not only would there be plenty of guts, but surely Aragorn would have been the first character to be beheaded. How much different would LotR have been if gritty realism had been a part of the formula?