[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Unlike it has been argued, we actually get one common soldier's view of things: Beregond's. I think we would be right to call him a patriot, although his deepest loyalties lay with a single captain, Faramir. But is there in his admiration something of sharing Faramir's love of the country and the city? I think it seems so. So patriotism was not just for the nobility, but some commoners found it inspiring as well. (As a side issue, what would you guys say about Bergil? Is it simple boyishness sense of adventure that makes him stay in the city or is there actually patriotism involved?) At least patriotism is strongly involved in the scene where the different captains from other parts of Gondor come to Minas Tirith.

Indeed. Gondorians, from my point of view, are obvious patriots, even the common people. Even Faramir and his Rangers, as far as I can remember, at least I got this impression. Although, of course, they are soldiers, so one can hardly expect any complaints from them. But even in general, I am imagining the common Gondorians a bit of the sort of the cheered-up people: "Every sheep from my herd gives wool, from which my wife can make blankets which could be sent to our brave soldiers who are staying all winter in Osgiliath, protecting our homes!"

Which leads me to think... did the Gondorians cherish the ethnic differences in their country - like in this scene, all the different "peoples" are presented and it shown in positive light that they have different armies with their sopecial abilities coming to the city and the people cheer at them all?

Well, aside from the "purest" Dúnedain, as you mentioned, I doubt the differencies otherwise play much of a role. It is no different, in my opinion, from let's say the Shire, where you have the Tooks and Brandybucks and Bagginses and whoever else. And mainly, I think it has little to do with the cheering - people were simply cheering because they saw more of these "brave soldiers who are going to protect our homes" - cf. above (and the coolest were those of Dol Amroth). It possibly was only that old Beregond Sr., sitting in a pub with his friends, went on saying "Ah yes, I have been to Lamedon, it's a queer folk out there, you know, all day spending with the sheep... and they couldn't even speak properly, if you ever heard how funnily they pronounce 'Denethor'..." But that would be about it. So, I don't think the Gondorians (and now one would be also to ask what do you mean by "Gondorians" - the common people, or the nobles?) actually cared in any way about what ethnic groups is their nation composed of. They simply were all Gondorians (and for quite a long time), only old Beregond Sr. could complain over the Lamedonians having funny accent, that's about it.

But in general, it seemed that the various parts of Gondor were quite a lot in contact with each other - for example, Ioreth had relatives in Imloth Melui, I have no idea where it was, but I gather that it was not quite next door. (Although, maybe all Ioreth's family was living in Imloth Melui, and only the young perspective girl just went for studies to Minas Tirith and started a big career...)

Patriotism, it has a lot to do with nationalism and now I'm led to wonder if there were separatist movements inside Gondor. In our world, nationalism is a new-ish concept, but what about M-E? Did the "aborigines" of Gondor ever feel oppressed by the Dúnedain kings and folk? Did they desire to have a country of their own to rule as they will (for that sure is an ancient desire)? I think they generally accpeted the Dúnedain because they were treated well and a lot of good was done to them, and in the course of time the two peoples mingled so that most of Gondorians were of mixed blood.

I am very certain that there were such groups. For example, the Dead Men of Dunharrow (before they became Dead) were a kind of extreme example of something, which in my opinion existed among the, as you say, "aborigines" of Gondor. And remember the still existing division between the "lesser men" and those of Dúnadan descent: I am pretty certain that all the time, there existed some groups of people (on both sides) who were displeased with one or the other. But as we see from the history, it never turned into any large-scale idea of rebellion.

But the idea of a separatist "aborigine" clan somewhere in the mountains of western Gondor just sounds rather intriguing...

Yes, and they could form also a weird secret cult in the White Mountains, could they

Also, I think that we should look a bit less narrow-mindedly at the case of Théoden. Was he such a bad king, in fact? Did the general majority of the commoners think his avoidance of the war was bad? We have Gamling clearly expressing his approval of the new policy, but what about the peasants of Wold or Eastfold, or the people of Edoras and its surroundings? The war was not at their doorstep in the same manner as at the Westfolders'. And if you forget about the war, do we have any reason to expect that Rohan was badly or unjustly governed under Gríma&Théoden? And as one last point, people had been generally content with their kings in Rohan, so there was no general disappointment with the ruling family, and besides, we haven't been told anything about Théoden's early years as a king. Maybe he was a loved and a good king then? Maybe he used to be popular among the people? Well-established popularity fades slowly, I think it quite likely that Rohirrim were slow to "turn against" Théoden because they still remembered him as a good king.

Indeed, actually, I see no reason why Théoden should be regarded as bad king except for the very last few years? We hear nothing particularly wrong about him. And even then, indeed, as you say, who knows if some common people did not actually approve even latter Gríma's policies... yesss! It was all just these "grumblers" like Éomer, this young snake, whispering bad things about the King, troubling the minds of his poor people.