[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

P.P.S. And in regards to Glorfindel and the Balrog (and Tolkien's continual dissembling), when Tolkien finally decided that Glorfindel Balrog-slayer was indeed the ressurrected Glorfindel Inglorion (and not just the misprint of an already used name), I seem to remember Tolkien alluding to Glorfindel being brought back for the very reason he was renowned for slaying a Balrog; however, I am too lazy to look it up.

I'm not.

From what is said of Glorfindel in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings it is evident that he was an Elda of high and noble spirit: and it can be assumed that, though he left Valinor in the host of Turgon, and so incurred the ban, he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.

More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Eärendil to escape, and seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. Though he cannot have known the importance of this (and would have defended them even had they been fugitives of any rank) , this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.

...

For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

HME XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth, pp. 380-1

This is the same statement referred to by CRT in The Return of the Shadow, pp. 214-5. From it, we can see that Glorfindel had been spiritually enhanced, not by fighting the balrog, but by sacrificing himself to save the refugees from Gondolin. Tolkien doesn't mention it being the reason for his dispatch, but he does use it as his chief reason for Glorfindel's release from the Halls of Waiting before the other Elves of Gondolin. I expect that the spiritual enhancement probably meant that he could see off an undead ninja pirate any day of the week.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In any case, the original question revolved around single combat between named renowned individuals. The answer to the question might be decidedly different, comparatively speaking, if we were discussing combat on a rank-and-file basis among races, irrespective of great heroes.

Originally Posted by Rune, lord of the prune

We also know that Elves can kill Dwarves. . . but that does not really get us closer to an answer.

As far as I know, the Ruin of Doriath is the only place where we see Elves and Dwarves fighting one another. It's poor evidence, I know, but if poor evidence is all there is then I'll take it. I knew that Thingol's death, surrounded and taken by surprise, was shaky as well, but as far as I know he was the only Elf to have both seen the light of the Two Trees and fought Dwarves. The Silmarillion doesn't mention him taking anyone with him, but of course he was unarmed and outnumbered.

Rune: you lost. The Swedes are better. I know it hurts, but you'll get over it.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It's not that they hated the church; on the contrary, they loved it, but there was a familarity that breeched what might seem as due respect for the institution. Therefore, we must be indulgent with the lower classes, and inject a little levity where applicable.

The lower orders should be grateful that I don't have them horse-whipped for forgetting to touch their forelocks. I always do inject levity in the appropriate place, and that place is Middle-earth Mirth. In that forum I'm happy to speculate about whether Gandalf could beat Pallando in an arm-wrestling contest, or whether Bilbo could blow better smoke-rings than Tobold Hornblower (both of which are answered in the History of Middle-earth extended edition). It's just that in Books the topics ought to reach a bit further, delve a bit deeper. I'm not saying that you have to hate Tolkien to find it important which of his races (on the same side) would win a combat; it just seems that people who do have somehow missed the point. Here we are trying to rate the Free Peoples according to who would win a fight, when their victories all come from acting together. We're asking about strength in arms when Tolkien's point was often that strength and martial prowess aren't enough. Túrin is a great warrior, but his life is a disaster. Sauron judges everything by temporal power and fighting ability and things don't turn out so well for him either, which leads me to wonder about Providence. It's a central theme in LR, and Tolkien's statement about Glorfindel above points out that he made the ultimate victory possible without having been able to know that he was doing so. Would it even matter who could probably win based on the evidence if the outcome of Eru's plans were to hang on the outcome?

Lest any say that I'm taking everything too seriously, if this topic had sprung up in Mirth, even now I'd be working out a league table or 'discovering' lost comments by JRRT. If it had been in N&N it wouldn't have mattered, because those topics are supposed to be fairly basic and easy to join. Surely, though, we should be able to expect more from Books, even after all this time, than a simple 'who's best?' thread.