View Single Post
Old 10-05-2008, 12:56 PM   #14
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,178
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Pipe Eldar versus Naugrim

In answering this somewhat frivolous question, everyone seems to be forgetting the Ruin of Doriath. This is the best example of the tragedy of elf fighting dwarf, and is told to show such a conflict in that light.

Quote:
Thus is was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and passed over the great bridge and entered into Menegroth; and there befell a thing most grievous among the sorrowful deeds of the Elder Days. For there was battle in the Thousand Caves, and many Elves and Dwarves were slain; and it has not been forgotten. But the Dwarves were victorious, and the halls of Thingol were ransacked and plundered. There fell Mablung of the Heavy Hand before the doors of the treasury wherein lay the Nauglamír; and the Silmaril was taken.

Of the Ruin of Doriath (The Silmarillion, p. 234)
The Dwarves killed Thingol, "Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor," (ibid, p. 233). They also defeated the Elves of Doriath, including Mablung, Thingol's chief captain and therefore not the least formidable of the Sindar.

We should also bear in mind that when Tolkien wrote The Fall of Gondolin he envisaged many balrogs, each substantially less powerful than Durin's Bane. By the time he wrote LR, he seems to have changed his mind and decided that there were a few significantly more powerful balrogs. In HME XI, Christopher Tolkien reproduces one of his father's notes pertaining to balrogs which he made on a typescript of the Grey Annals: it reads "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed" (The War of the Jewels, p. 134). When Glorfindel kills his balrog at Crissaegrim in BLT 2, he hacks off its whip arm at the elbow and stabs it in the belly, but it is difficult to imagine that such a fight would have been possible with the balrog of Moria. Similarly Ecthelion of the Fountain drowns Gothmog, arguably the most powerful balrog, after having been wounded and with a crippled shield arm. These combats from the original Fall of Gondolin are significantly absent from the 1977 Silmarillion, which of course post-dates Gandalf's description of his fight with a balrog.

Quote:
'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'

...

'...Yet [the abyss] has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge... Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.'

The Two Towers, p. 490
Apparently it was more difficult to drown a balrog than might be supposed from a reading of the original Fall of Gondolin.

Therefore, although a great lord of the Noldor such as Fingolfin, Glorfindel or Ecthelion could probably defeat one of the greater Dwarves, the contest is not such a clear-cut thing as one might imagine. When we consider the years that passed between the writing of Glorfindel's fight and the composition of LR, together with the changes in Tolkien's conception of the number and individual power of balrogs, we can consider the fall of Moria as poor evidence for their relative strengths. As for size playing any significant part, let us remember that Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth seven times before finally being defeated, and at that time Morgoth "stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned" (Silmarillion, p.152).

So we know that Dwarves can kill Elves, that the ability of some elf-lords to kill balrogs is not conclusive proof and that taller characters can be beaten by those of lesser stature. I still think that the elf would probably win in a completely even match, but I doubt that a Dwarf would enter such a contest in the first place: it would be idiotic. In any case, it seems to demean Tolkien's work more than a little to reduce his legends to questions of who can beat whom.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne?
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is offline   Reply With Quote