[Boromir88]

Morthoron, thank you, it's nice to be back.

No one gets to amass riches, kill wantonly and then retire to a seaside resort on the beaches of Umbar (like in real life).

That was truly delightful to read, and a good point, Tolkien's baddies to get their come uppance. However, I will say while they do get what they deserve, some of those baddies you list (Gollum, Grima, Denethor) I personally feel sympathetic towards, because there are still good traits I see in them. They are without question evil (and Denethor's case is more grey), but as Gandalf says about Gollum: "I think it is a sad story." Hmm...I wonder if Gandalf would say that about the Orcs?

I agree Sauron doesn't treat them as cannon fodder, but Tolkien does.~Lalwende

I guess if Tolkien needed baddies for our heroes to hack down, then that would make the Orcs cannon fodder. But by knowing Tolkien entertained the idea of orc redemption, that doesn't strike sympathy in me. Orcs were vile, cruel, and liked to use torture for their own sport. (Let's not forget the capture and torment of Celebrian). Also, just how "redeemed" are we talking about here.

Lal mentions Gorbag and Shagrat discussing retirement, but to borrow some words from Morthoron, it's not like Tolkien wanted his baddies to retire on a seaside resort on the beaches of Umbar.

"They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? - of we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses."
"Ah!" said Shagrat. "Like old times."~The Choices of Master Samwise

Shagrat and Gorbag's "retirement" plan is to simply escape the Big Bosses and go out on their own. They would still stick to their orcish habits, but there would be no one like Morgoth or Sauron controlling them.

“The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted / converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their ‘talking’ was really reeling off ‘records’ set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellion critical words - he knew about them.”~Morgoth’s Ring; Myths Transformed

Tolkien's Orcs were capable of rebellious thoughts against their Big Bosses, but were they capable of living peacefully and being contributors to society? I doubt it. The absense of Morgoth or Sauron would not suddenly dissolve their wickedness. I'll get back to that, but let me kind of jump ahead to Letter 153:

They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.)~Letter #153

So, there it is, but Lalwende you mentioned how Tolkien's later writings often muddy the waters, and I'm sorry I'm going to have to do some more muddying. As Bethberry ended up bringing to my attention that Letter 153 was actually a draft that was never sent. This letter was intended for Peter Hastings, a Catholic, but as Carpenter adds in at the end of the draft:

[The draft ends here. At the top, Tolkien has written: 'Not sent,' and has added: 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.']

I had brought up in the Modernism thread that Tolkien's friend Norman Cantor argues Tolkien's letters are his conscious thoughts after writing the story. So, it's interesting to hear the author's thoughts and opinions, but they do tend to muddy things up. While they are interesting to read, his Letters are not authoritative. Or as Tolkien puts it in Letter 211 (ironic isn't?):

I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; and in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand.

I find it interesting that in Letter 153 he stops himself, and never does send out the letter. Going back to my first post, Tolkien asks us the question sociologists and psychologists have been trying to answer for years. Even more fascinating is Sociology and Psychology were not big sciences pre-WWI. But post-war there was a huge boom and now it seems like half the people I meet are psych-majors.

...maybe I am churlish in that he doesn't fully pull off either having an effectively scary, amoral enemy nor an enemy which has been corrupted to be that way and is to be pitied.

An interesting thought, for me Tolkien did pull of an effectively scary, amoral enemy. I'm sorry, I don't find anything to like about the Orcs, anyone who captures, torments, poisons...etc other people for their own sport, is evil. I don't think that Tolkien struggled with whether the Orcs were evil or not, but I do think he struggled with does he blame the Orc or the system? (A question we all struggle to ask ourselves today) I will point out one more thing...when the Big Boss (Sauron) was finally destroyed, and the Orcs have an oppurtunity to sue for pardon, do they? No, Tolkien draws a remarkable comparison to ants losing their queen.