[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It's all very well setting it up that the worst traits of human (mis)behaviour stem from Orcish blood (and quite intriguing), however he neatly skips the fact that in his tales a lot of Elves, Men and Dwarves without a single drop of Orcish blood did plenty of bad things too. It lacks coherence.

Well, not really. The Orcs just do more of the bad stuff that Elves and Men (Dwarves aren't connected- or are they. Originally they were all going to be evil, according to the BoLT, at least I think) do. If elves/men were there ancestors, then I just think that Morgoth brought out their bad side, so much so that it unbalanced the good side. And what about the Evil Men? Thousands of them are killed, and they are the normal humans. I think it makes them more scary when they are enslaved by someone evil, even though they have the capacity to be good.

Originally Posted by skip spence

if we keep it simple Elves and Men share the same kind of physical body and can have children together so Orcs might have their orgins in both peoples.
It's when we start taking about the soul or fea we run into problems.

Are you suggesting Immortal Orcs?

Originally Posted by skip spence

While most characters like for example Sam do see the Orcs as bad though and through this isn't the authors voice. Some of the wiser characters like Gandalf do express views that they in fact don't hate the minions of the enemy but rather feel sorry for them. After the War of the Ring Aragorn also pardons the enemy combatants (including the Orcs) and grants them lands where they will be free to make their own destiny, something he wouldn't have done if he considered them beyond redemtion.

You would feel sorry for someone that was enslaved to do evil if they couldn't do aything else.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, almost all depicted orcs are not that good fighters or otherwise fearsome opponents as the main characters seem to be able to kill them by tens if not by hundreds. One gets afraid of them most when they threathen hobbits without a human, elf or dwarf to help them out as to hobbits they stand as real threats (but even here Tolkien gives the hobbits the strengtht and guts to beat them when it counts).

But during the first book, the only hobbit to kill an orc was Sam. And once in a while, an orc chieftain comes along, and then there's trouble.

Originally Posted by skip spence

That's a good point and one I never liked as an adult. As a kid though I always felt comforted by always knowing that the good guys in the end had the strenght to fend off the Orcs. But yeah, it's silly that Orcs always seem to be weaker, more cowardly and less skilled then the heroes when there's no coherent reason for it being so.

Presumably, Orcs train at warfare and fighting all of their life and would therefore be better warriors than most free men with other interests. Also, Morgoth and Sauron would have an interest in breeding big Orcs, yet they are much smaller than the Men and Elves they spring from.

But in Tolkien's work, all the really tall CoI (Children of Ilúvatar- ooh! Another abbreviation) are good. Look at the Númenoreans (and so, Tuor). And Turgon. But then Thingol could have been better. Anyway, evil characters are often portrayed as being smaller, weaker, cowering/crouching/stooping creatures. And anyway, what about Uruks? (and I'm not talking about Saruman's). Anyway, since Morgoth made so many, he probably didn't care (or were they "Spartan" in their selection of warriors?).

And then again, there is the free will and intelligence question. An intelligent slave would be more capable. Of course, there is the question of rebellion, but maybe being isolated stopped that. Like in Moria, in the Chamber of Mazarbul, once the chieftain died the others ran off (they came back with reinforcements, but that's not the point. In fact, this points even more to the fact that they are more effective). If they had been mindless "machines" then they would have just gone straight to their death. They know when they're outnumbered and get suport. In this way they are more effective, and less die that way. Being selfish just makes them more formidable, as they are less likely to die.
Anyway, it is said that those that fight because they are forced to/payed to will be worse in battle, as they don't really need to win the fight- the only thing that affects them is whether or not they die in the battle itself. The orcs don't need to fight, unlike the "good guys" who would otherwise get invaded and killed.

And orcs are brought up to kill and torture for fun, in the same way as people nowadays are brought up to play sports/other games for fun. This is just another sport for them. And some people say that sport is just the body's natural instinct to make people feel superior to others (the ones they beat) and to keep the body fit and ready to fight/kill. And what better way to establish your superiority than to kill someone. Just like when people go hunting (just so you know, I don't know anyone who does so I don't know how it feels) they establish their superiority and skill over other animals. Also, when it was still legal, being able to hunt creatures that were able to kill Man (like lions, tigers, certain bears, wolves, etc) was considered as a sign of power. Anyway, orcs did find pleasure in making people suffer, especially their most powerful enemies.