[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Not so sure about the attemted rape thing. I remember reading something about rape being an unthinkable act by any elf.

A cardinal sin perhaps, but not unthinkable. Tolkien softened his stance on Eol raping Aredhel, editing that section to read that perhaps she was a little willing *Wink, wink, nudge, nudge*, but I believe rape was the outcome in the 1st draft. Had Maeglin's plans succeeded, he would have forcibly married his cousin (and forced marriage can be construed as rape). As far as Celegorm, he had every intention of forcibly marrying Luthien and deludedly thought such a match would gain Thingol's allegiance (like that would have turned out well!).

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I think at least Maedhros and Maglor were aware how atrocious their deeds were. I keep wondering what words Maedhros had for Celegorm and Curufin when he learned of the Nargothrond issues. The problem is, that at the same time they thought that they were right. Dior and Elwing held a Silmaril, which they considered to be their own. From their point of view, these two held an item which was not their own - and were obstinate about it.

For being such holy jewels, the Silmarils certainly brought out the worst in the elves, didn't they?

Originally Posted by skip spence

Maedros or Maglor did not abandon the oath.

Originally Posted by Maedhros_the_Tall

At which point do you feel Maedhros and Maglor abandon the oath? When they cast their respective Silmarils away?

I think it's quite implicit in the text that by casting away the Silmarils, both Maedhros and Maglor abandoned their oath:

"But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable; and he perceived that it was as Eonwe had said, that his right hitherto had become void, and that the oath was in vain."

Maedhros committed suicide, and Maglor threw his Silmaril away. What more can one say but that they voided their oaths?

Originally Posted by Macalaure

The way I understand it, only Feanor and his sons were under the oath. Those who followed them were bound only by their loyalty.

Originally Posted by skip spence

As far as I'm aware, Celebrimbor is never mentioned in any of the first age tales. Maybe he wasn't even born then?

Again, I am not sure if Celebrimbor took the oath (there is nothing in the canon which says he did or didn't), but given the mood of Curufin, his father, it would seem to me unlikely that the son could escape his father's zealotry save by out and out rebellion. And Skip, Celebrimbor was certainly a 1st Age Elf (whether he was born in Valinor or while in exile is conjecture), and most likely lived in Nargothrond. What is certain is that he played no part in any of the Kinslayings, which seems to me rather telling in regards to the relationship between father and son. Given the fealty between the sons of Feanor, an outright split had to occur between Curufin and Celebrimbor. In any case, what is certain is that the Doom of Mandos followed Celebrimbor. He did not return to Valinor to seek amnesty and he eventually became enmeshed in the making of the Rings.

Originally Posted by skip spence

One must remember though that had it not been for Feanor's oath and the flight of Noldor, Morgoth would have laid Beleriand to waste much earlier in all likelihood. The whole of ME would have fallen under his dominion very quickly. Without the oath, in other words, none of the great kingdoms would have existed, save Doriath only, which also would have fallen much earlier. Maybe there would have been other kingdoms and glorious deeds, but that's a story never told.

Edit: Well, perhaps it wasn't the oath that was nessesary to stay Morgoth, rather the return of the Noldor. But would the Noldor have left Aman if it wasn't for Feanor? I think not. And would Feanor have suffered for anyone to touch his silmarils. Never happen.

*Shrugs* Ah, isn't most of our discussions merely conjecture? What a barren board this would be if we didn't make some educated guesses!

I think that Feanor's rebellion was merely a pretext for some elves to leave (specifically Galadriel). The thought of leaving (although unspoken) was already there in many elves who dreamed of wider realms and adventure. The Noldor were particularly hotblooded, and it seems to me that they would eventually feel caged within the confines of Valinor. Aman may have been paradise, but the grass is always greener elsewhere (that is, of course, until you get there and have to pick through the weeds and crabgrass).