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Old 06-08-2008, 02:10 PM   #14
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
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skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
[Celeborn] tried to carry off Luthien (an attempted rape and forced marriage)
Not so sure about the attemted rape thing. I remember reading something about rape being an unthinkable act by any elf. What he had in mind was probably something more along the lines of locking her up in his tallest tower. If she wouldn't put out that is. After all, nice girls are known to fall for bad guys. Perhaps she'd think there was good in him; if she'd just treat him well and love him he'd change for the better. And he was a looker, nicknamed Celeborn the Fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Ironically, Maedhros and Maglor eventually abandoned the Oath of Feanor, .
Maedros or Maglor did not abandon the oath. They discussed it after the war of wrath, but decided to try to take the silmarils by force after all, and did so as well. But Eonwe would not slay them and allowed them to escape with the jewels. The hallowed Silmarils burned their hands however and tortured no less by their concience Maglor hurled one silmaril into the sea while Maedros threw the other and himself into a firey pit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
One wonders about the level of free will inherent in these elves, and whether or not the chain of mayhem could not have been broken (there were elves of conscience who chose not to participate in either of the Kinslayings, after all). Had they the wisdom and the strength to stay the madness earlier, then perhaps Morgoth would not have destroyed all the great Elvish kingdoms of the 1st Age.
One must remember though that had it not been for Feanor's oath and the flight of Noldor, Morgoth would have laid Beleriand to waste much earlier in all likelihood. The whole of ME would have fallen under his dominion very quickly. Without the oath, in other words, none of the great kingdoms would have existed, save Doriath only, which also would have fallen much earlier. Maybe there would have been other kingdoms and glorious deeds, but that's a story never told.

Edit: Well, perhaps it wasn't the oath that was nessesary to stay Morgoth, rather the return of the Noldor. But would the Noldor have left Aman if it wasn't for Feanor? I think not. And would Feanor have suffered for anyone to touch his silmarils. Never happen.

One interesting thought however is whether they could abandon the oath, and what would've happened then. It is told that they named the One in it and that this was a grave matter not to be messed around with. Yet, it is clear that the Valar wanted them to abandon the oath. What was Eru's point of view, one wonders?

Quote:
Celebrimbror, Curufin's son, either defied the Oath or (most unlikely) was not forced to take it
As far as I'm aware, Celebrimbor is never mentioned in any of the first age tales. Maybe he wasn't even born then? I do believe he was though, but the oath was not in effect after the first age as there were no Silmarils left to fight about: they were all unattainable. One was at the bottom of the ocean, another lost under the crust of the earth, the third a star up in the sky.

Edit: cross-posted with Lalaith and Mac
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Last edited by skip spence; 06-08-2008 at 11:32 PM.
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