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Part One: In which Vana diverges further from the topic:
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Why are we debating at all, then, if there is only one way to live?
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Can't help myself on this one, either. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Look at what Bill Ferny had to say again:
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Thus, it is possible for all people, no matter their religion or lack thereof, to strive for the highest good (being qua being). Those of us who are religious are just the lucky ones who have been given the answers to the test (like, being qua being = The One True God). While the pursuit of the good is not something belonging solely to those of a religious bent, the vast majority of those who have no religion make the mistake of ending their pursuit of good with greater goods. Achieving greater goods, like peace, love of neighbor or a life of virtue, no matter how lofty or noble they may be, are really pointless in and of themselves. Their very existence is dependent on that which they indicate, that which gives them meaning and significance, the only thing that can satisfy the human need to know and will: being qua being. For human beings to achieve anything less leads only to dissatisfaction and never quenchable thirst.
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People can have all sorts of opinions about the persuit of good. But it is only within the structure of religion that this "good" is ever attained (Achieving greater goods: peace, love of neighbor or a life of virtue). That's what I meant about "what is your definition of good?" Is there one that stands on its own, without the influence of opinion or circumstance, and without resorting to religious means? A person can solve this by trying to be entirely, completely, and utterly good, or trying to find a concrete, justified, supported example of another human person who was entirely and utterly good, *outside* of the scope of religion. "Concrete and justified and supported" being key terms here. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] If it is possible, then someone must have done it by now, since the human race has been around for so long. If not... well, I guess the answer lies elsewhere.
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While this may sound religious in tone, remember it was the pagan Greeks who first conceived this philosophical anthropology, not Christians or Muslims.
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Right-o. I agree with this completely. Truth can occur in non-religious instances, but it stems from a religious source. Eh, you may not agree with me. That's wonderful, because that's the source of intelligent debate. Like someone said to me once, isn't it great when the love of one man's books can bring together such diverse people? And such intelligent debating? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Right. Last off-topic post for me. But please, please, *please*, if anyone else wants to talk about it further, please PM me. I live for this sort of stuff.
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Part Two: in which Vana gets back on track:
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Bravo, Guinevere and Niluial! On-topic posts!
Tolkien:
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All we do know, and that to a large extent by direct experience, is that evil labours with vast power and perpetual success- in vain: preparing always only the soil for unexpected good to sprout in. So it is in general, and so it is in our own lives.
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I hear that. It may seem like it is a foolish escapade, trying to find just a spark or flicker of good in a barren blackness of war and terror. Perhaps it is. But the effort of it is how humanity endures. The "good" may seem silly and trivial, but it starves off despair. And sometimes that's all we can do.
As a person who has never been to war (though her country has been to war thousands of times, with questionable motives), she can only rely on the knowledge of others--and, as Tolkien said, direct experience is really where the knowledge lies. Regardless, my father told me once why he felt his life was in such shambles when he was young. He went to Vietnam--voluntarily--and came back a broken man. His life before and after that was filled with drugs and darkness. But he said that he endured such hardship and darkness to, well, find Mom and have me. And through us his life became whole again. Without that darkness in the beginning, he would have been unable to see the light of his future for what it really was--light. A reward for sticking in there. And for not giving in.
Sappy, yes. But life often is. And sometimes that's the only choice.
-'Vana