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Child of the 7th Age · 01-11-2008, 02:04 PM

Folwren -

Hold yer horses!

I think you need to be careful here.

Over the years, I have read all the titles by Lewis you listed as well as a host of biographies, studies etc, most of them sympathetic. I wouldn't have done all this reading unless I felt I was getting something from it. But while I have learned many things from Lewis, and can see beautiful thoughts and ideas, there are aspects of his writing that I am still not comfortable with.

One of those "uncomfortable points" is Lewis's handling of Susan. So much has been said on this that I will not add anything except one personal note. I can remember curling up with the stories long, long ago and was troubled as I read what happened to Susan. But as I said before, it is not just Susan. I also have trouble with certain aspects of Jane Tudor in Hideous Strength as well as the archetypal villians in Narnia. Lewis's Narnia villains come in three varieties: supernatural creatures like Tash, political states like Calormen, and three witches: the White Witch, the Green Lady, and Empress Jade (a reworking of the White Witch but so changed as to be a different character).

There are no comparable wizard figures in Narnia. When Lewis wanted to embody evil in a single human "personna", he chose the symbol of a seductive female character. These are not realistic women but mythic figures that embody beauty and evil. These two factors are inevitably linked. The greater the beauty, the greater the evil. Lewis does show positive female characters in Narnia and other works but he downplays or negates their physical beauty. His best character of all---his most complex depiction of a woman--was Orual who was said to be so ugly that no one could look at her. There are passages throughout Lewis's books and his letters that show a similar ambivalence about female beauty. He is both intrigued and distrustful of it. I am as far from being a fashion plate as you can imagine. Still, it saddens me that Lewis had such difficulty appreciating the female form and figure or in acknowledging that physical beauty and goodness can be linked. His writings show no comparable problem depicting men who are brave, virile, great warriors, etc, which of course are characteristics frequently ascribed to the male gender both in fantasy and real life.

This discussion does relate to Tolkien because his own writings are a contrast to Lewis in this respect. Galadriel, Luthien, Arwen, Eowyn....Tolkien's writings have many mature and beautiful women who were good to the essence, yet capable of exercising a spell over the men near them. Just witness Gimli and Galadriel, or Frodo and Goldberry. (Whoops! I almost typed Bethberry...)

There are also legitimate reasons why Tolkien was not personally enthusiastic about Narnia. There is a wonderful article that came out in a recent issue of Mythlore that discusses this question. It's the best piece of writing I've encountered on this topic. When I'd finished it, I had a better view of how and why Tolkien felt uncomfortable with Narnia and also how this may have contributed to the strains in their friendship. This article discusses the Letters to Malcolm and the Narnia chronicles (in light of a reference in the Letters where Tolkien himself links the two). The author shows how the Narnia chronicles embody many views that Tolkien as a Catholic simply could not accept. The things is quite long -- 12 pages of text, 6 of sources and detailed notes, but definitely worth the read: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n21130448/pg_1

01-11-2008, 02:04 PM	#84
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Folwren - Hold yer horses! I think you need to be careful here. Over the years, I have read all the titles by Lewis you listed as well as a host of biographies, studies etc, most of them sympathetic. I wouldn't have done all this reading unless I felt I was getting something from it. But while I have learned many things from Lewis, and can see beautiful thoughts and ideas, there are aspects of his writing that I am still not comfortable with. One of those "uncomfortable points" is Lewis's handling of Susan. So much has been said on this that I will not add anything except one personal note. I can remember curling up with the stories long, long ago and was troubled as I read what happened to Susan. But as I said before, it is not just Susan. I also have trouble with certain aspects of Jane Tudor in Hideous Strength as well as the archetypal villians in Narnia. Lewis's Narnia villains come in three varieties: supernatural creatures like Tash, political states like Calormen, and three witches: the White Witch, the Green Lady, and Empress Jade (a reworking of the White Witch but so changed as to be a different character). There are no comparable wizard figures in Narnia. When Lewis wanted to embody evil in a single human "personna", he chose the symbol of a seductive female character. These are not realistic women but mythic figures that embody beauty and evil. These two factors are inevitably linked. The greater the beauty, the greater the evil. Lewis does show positive female characters in Narnia and other works but he downplays or negates their physical beauty. His best character of all---his most complex depiction of a woman--was Orual who was said to be so ugly that no one could look at her. There are passages throughout Lewis's books and his letters that show a similar ambivalence about female beauty. He is both intrigued and distrustful of it. I am as far from being a fashion plate as you can imagine. Still, it saddens me that Lewis had such difficulty appreciating the female form and figure or in acknowledging that physical beauty and goodness can be linked. His writings show no comparable problem depicting men who are brave, virile, great warriors, etc, which of course are characteristics frequently ascribed to the male gender both in fantasy and real life. This discussion does relate to Tolkien because his own writings are a contrast to Lewis in this respect. Galadriel, Luthien, Arwen, Eowyn....Tolkien's writings have many mature and beautiful women who were good to the essence, yet capable of exercising a spell over the men near them. Just witness Gimli and Galadriel, or Frodo and Goldberry. (Whoops! I almost typed Bethberry...) There are also legitimate reasons why Tolkien was not personally enthusiastic about Narnia. There is a wonderful article that came out in a recent issue of Mythlore that discusses this question. It's the best piece of writing I've encountered on this topic. When I'd finished it, I had a better view of how and why Tolkien felt uncomfortable with Narnia and also how this may have contributed to the strains in their friendship. This article discusses the Letters to Malcolm and the Narnia chronicles (in light of a reference in the Letters where Tolkien himself links the two). The author shows how the Narnia chronicles embody many views that Tolkien as a Catholic simply could not accept. The things is quite long -- 12 pages of text, 6 of sources and detailed notes, but definitely worth the read: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n21130448/pg_1 __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 01-11-2008 at 02:11 PM.