[alatar]

Originally Posted by Farael

and I don't think anyone would say elves are EVIL.

I would. Individuals elves can be evil, and if one believes that Melkor used elves to create orcs, methinks that he started with the worst of the elves, then simply continued to nudge them further down the road.

So if we say that men could be swayed to be evil and needed no "corrupting" what's to say that Dwarves could not? Clearly they fought for the "bad guys" and if so, they at least condoned (if not partaked in) cruelty and "evil ways".

Plastic creatures that we are, we need take no other form to express our evil ways. I just wondered if Dwarves would display some outer sign of their perversion.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I see your point, alatar, but I don't think your arguments are very strong.

Reread them next week after they've spent some time at the gymnasium.

I mean, maybe at the Maiar-Maiar thing you can talk like that, but definitely not in the Hobbit-Hobbit thing. Not even in Sandyman's case and, in fact, not even in Gollum's. However the Hobbits may be in fact Men, there are no definite anti-hobbits as a whole faction, there are bad hobbits, but that varies from Sackville-Bagginses through Sandyman to Gollum. But to place the equation - or rather, X-mark between hobbits A and hobbits B you'll need first to find a hobbit society somewhere else that is "evil" in general, like some Easterling-hobbits or something. But that's based on the society, which I believe was not the point of view you took. Genesis-based you have either to place the Hobbits all under Men or you need also to find some counterpart to them. And this is the stance you took, or so I understood it, genesis-based, yet you are using individuals as examples in the case of hobbits.

I think that I understand what you think that I'm saying, but...My point regarding anti-hobbits is that, as posited above, if we were to start with the worst - Ted and Smeagol - then with time we could theoretically get an entirely different species. If Ted could go to the dark side, and Gollum could become a murderous cannibal, then it stands that I could get a bunch of the same, given the resources of Melkor/Sauron and time. And doesn't Gandalf state that, heretofore, the Dark Lord ignored or did not notice the hobbits? But what if he, or better, Melkor did?

And by the way, how do the Drúedain fit into the scheme?

Not sure, but I noticed in RotK that there's a subtype of orc that is used as a tracker, being good at sniffing and such, similar to Ghân-buri-Ghân and the other Woses.

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

I can't understand why so many people are saying "I can't accept Dwarves as evil counterpart to Dwarves!" And why not? We have good Men and corrupted Men. Similarly there can be Dwarves and corrupted Dwarves(Tolkien said that the Dwarves of the East were 'corrupted' in similar manner to the Easterlings).

My original question, or thought, was that Melkor used what was on hand to create his armies and help. He used elves for orcs, ents for trolls, dogs (or nice wolves) for wargs, and who knows what dragons. What could or did he make with the Dwarves? Was he at a loss regarding these creatures, or did he make something from them?

Dragons do seem to have similar traits as Dwarves, methinks...