[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Besides, Grima was mearly a puppet for Saruman's master-plan, and Saruman was in turn a puppet for Sauron's master-plan. So you see, it all comes back to Sauron no matter on how you look at it.

But we are not talking about who is the most adept strategist - but who is the most effective liar... you know.. the groundwork .

It dosen't say anywhere that we just have to be proned to focusing on achievements done in the Third Age.

I disagree... The very prologue of the LotR qualifies it as a story of the end of the Third Age. If we allow ourselves to extend its reach at will, then why not include Melkor in the vote; he would be a sure winner by all accounts.

Sauron destroyed an entire island, the homeland of the Numenoreans, the greatest fighting men of the age. Now if that's not an accomplishment I'd like to see what is.

It was not Sauron who physically destroyed Numenor. As for its moral decay, it began even before him.

You say that Saruman was capable of doing the same to the island of Numenor. He very well might have been able to, but he didn't. Therefore that makes Saurons acheivments all the more amazing, because no-one in the history of Middle Earth has done such an amazing feat.

Again, we are back at disregarding the boundaries of LotR and arbitrarily setting our own. Melkor accomplished far greater destructions, directly and indirectly.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I though I should point out that Saruman gets away with another lie earlier in the book one that in its own way is both more audacios and more effective than any he is able to put over on Theoden via Wormtounge. The lie is when he tells the Morgul King that he does not know where the Shire is.

Great point indeed.

Originally Posted by The hunt for the ring, UT

Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgul did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.

I would further like to point that Saruman's voice is not magical, which adds even more credit to him, as far as this thread is concerned (emphasis original):

Originally Posted by Letter #210

Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.