[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, at the time of the note (ca 1965) the documents contained in the wrapper were all much older: FNIII poss. 1937, DA 1946, Akallabeth early 50's. Matching up the three texts to the three 'traditions' of the note follow logically. DA can only be Numenorean, Ak has to be the 'blended' version, and that leaves FN as the 'elvish' version.

Did the envelope that contained the texts of DA contain these other documents? I did not think so from the description, though it doesn't matter much if it did.

In determining which version is 'true' we must be guided by the internal logic of the legendarium. Tolkien himself of course maintained that the Eldar would know "true astronomy," learned directly from the Valar.

Agreed, truer tales hailed from the 'gods' and those associated with them, and one notes that in DA it is the Nimîr that taught that the world was round. There were Men who found this hard to believe, or they believed it but were tricked by Sauron telling them it was flat. This is not consonant with the idea that the Elves knew the truth of a flat world of course.

One would assume that such knowledge would also be found in the House of Elrond, where exiled Noldor, Wizards, and Glorfindel redivivus were available: and the Akallabeth, whether written by Elendil or a later Arnorian with access to Rivendell (and Lindon), deliberately corrects the portions it copies from DA back to an explicitly flat-world framework.

Or the AK, being a mixed document, contains persistent mannish notions concerning the shape of the world. Generally speaking, contact with those who arguably know better need not mean a given idea in a given account will be corrected.

'It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair (...) what we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centered upon actors, such as Feanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back -- from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar of Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.' JRRT Text I Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

The point I suppose is that in the mid-Sixties Tolkien ratified the old Fall of Numenor as an 'elvish' account, rather than simply rejecting it as obsolete (as he did with the Tale of the Sun and Moon). If FN retained its canonicity in his mind, then we must, I think, accept it as the teaching of the Wise, and presumptively 'true' (whereas Mannish texts Tolkien always characterises as garbled or unreliable).

But that is a big 'if' in my opinion, and I see no compelling evidence that Tolkien surely ratified such an old version as updated and correct (or correct on all points, like possibly the flying ships of the Numenoreans too, for example).

JRRT's note merely reveals that he thinks DA is good (for the reasons stated) in the proposed case of three different traditions... to my mind this is still a leap away from FN (or even DA actually) as it was written now going to stand 'as was'. I think this is pushing Christopher Tolkien's 'categorization' too far in too specific a way. If indeed we are left with FN III being the likely 'Elvish representative' in general, it would not take much revision to have it agree with what the Elves taught in DA.

posted earlier: There follows a very strong deduction or supposition that by the mid-1960's Toklien had evolved a very sophisticated 'theory of the tale': the Flat world was correct, and the Breaking really did happen; but Men outside Eldarin tutelage were so small-minded/unimaginative/divorced from the Valar that they refused to believe that such naked Divine intervention had really occurred (after all it violates 'scientific' thinking).

OK, if that's something they refused to believe, what do you suggest these Men did believe however (within the context that it is 'true' that the earth was originally flat)?

This is a very interesting take but I am still confused a bit by it... and not yet swayed.

It seems you are proposing (if what you suggest is correct), that in the 1960s and despite the concerns found in Myths Transformed, Tolkien decided that the 'truth' about the original shape of the world runs counter to that of the Primary World. Rather I think in Tolkien's legends 'scientific thinking' is what flat world thinkers are not engaging in. And one implication is that when certain Men found out the world was round they yet believed it had been flat -- and thus that meant Divine intervention, for what else could explain this.

I understand that DA is the confused Mannish myth, but what is being confused exactly? The notion in DA and the sketches is that the Eldar were teaching that the world was round. Men indeed might have confused something about these 'immortal' beings, or something about the lands from which they came (see also Christopher Tolkien's look at some of the purposed variances in SD)... but how is it that the Numenoreans thought the Elves were teaching round world notions if they were actually instructing them about a flat world? I can't see good reason for them to get this wrong. Of course it remains possible that I am confused, but I could find no text or commentary which seems to support this had somehow been garbled too.