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Originally Posted by Raynor

Is that what actually happened? Was He really inexperienced? Dostoievski envisioned Jesus as saying that:

"People must trust in me, Jesus answers, the real trust is that trust, which is not buttressed by the facts. If I will do a miracle everyone will trust me, but the real believer trusts me without miracles."

I'm sorry, but I cringe every time I read such ideas. Surely one must trust (even I try to do it sometimes ), but the evidence indicates that not everyone trusts even when presented with miracles. Note that Satan, Adam, Peter, Judas, etc all stood in the presence of God, witnessed miracles and yet sinned.

One of the things I like about Tolkien's world as it's not as complicated. Miracles are just someone knowing a bit more of the music than you, and having a better voice/instrument with which to express it.

I would say that evil was more powerful in the past - because: there were Melkor and Sauron, and all the other lads; evil was more concentrated, and thus harder to resist; the foundations of the world are good and able to heal the evil from "within" (cf Myths Transformed & Athrabeth).

But if you lived in the south, far from Morgoth's reach, did the more powerful evil even enter into your daily life? By the Fourth Age, the evil within men was worldwide, though in a much lesser degree than was present in the one being of Melkor.

But does this relate to Tolkien's religion?

Originally Posted by obloquy

innocent like children.

You've not met my youngest...

It seems silly to apply a physical law to what is fundamentally metaphysical. Maybe you're joking.

Think that Bêthberry might be trying to relate her thoughts to those of us that think in terms of the Laws of Physics. And she never jokes.

I disagree with that. Were they simply tempted by something that was witheld from them, or were they deceived by the Devil? Had Satan not lied to them about God's warning ("you positively will not die"), would they have still disobeyed?

Great question. If Satan could fall from grace all on his own (taking one third of the heavenly host with him), could not Adam and Eve get there too without any outside help?

One gets the feeling that Melkor was set up - trapped. I'm not in his fan club, as was indicated in this thread, but when I read that Manwe was set to be King of Kings, then exactly what was to be the role of his somewhat greater brother, if not to stir the pot? His powers were given him that he could antagonize and therefore strengthen in some way each of his siblings.