Thread: Good and evil
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:47 PM   #3
Raynor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menelvagor
Iluvatar is a "cold" god. He stays outside the world after its creation, and his only active action - the catastrophe of Numenor with the drowning of thousands (millions?) of innocent women an children - cannot be regarded as positive in my opinion, although the sin of Ar-Pharazon and his fellows was great of course.
We have many indications, all throughout the works, that Iluvatar is an active god
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainulindale, Silmarillion
Yet some things there are that [the valar] cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna, Silmarillion
Then Manwe sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Iluvatar. Then it seemed to Manwe that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Iluvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, HoME X
He must as Author always remain 'outside' the Drama, even though that Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #156
[Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #192
Frodo deserved all honor because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said)
These are some main highlights; plus, even in LotR, we have various characters referring to Him indirectly as inspiring, guiding, or protecting them. The hobbits colloquially refer to him as Lawks and Lore (IIRC).

Men and Elves also represent a continuous intervention of the One; while most of them more likely have a "free" fate, some of them (like Beren) have a great doom ahead of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menelvagor
The valar appear helpful to Elves and Men at some points, but in general their job only is executing fate or predestination
Well, I wouldn't put it that way; they have some knowledge of the future, deriving from their knowledge of the Music. But even with that, they are often in doubt, they consult each other and even Iluvatar. I guess a more correct formulation is that they are the most ready to follow the axani, the rules, that Eru sets forth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menelvagor
There is no point in the story where a "higher power" introduces law or ethics.
Osanwe kenta makes reference to the axani, the rules that Eru put forth (as in ethics; there is another kind of "universal" rules, unati, that cannot be broken at all, no matter one's intent or power). The very meaning of axan is "'law, rule, commandment; as primarily proceeding from Eru'; adopted from Valarin akasan 'He says', referring to Eru". While LotR has no specific mention of this, it is understood from the greater work that the valar in turn taught the elves, who in turn taught the numenoreans, who were, in the beginning at least, teachers of humankind. Later on, the true knowledge of Eru is revived by Aragorn (as Tolkien implies in letter #156). More specifically, we know from the Atrabeth that Eru did indeed contact the Men, and taught them (until they became too preoccupied with their own thoughts, and later became thralls to Melkor).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menelvagor
Given all this, to me the question is not why there are so many evil characters in Middle Earth, but how such a world can produce good persons at all.
Well, first of all, as mentioned previously, all the Eruhini come directly from the One, and it is implied that all of them are good by nature. Furthermore, there also are the very foundations of the world are good, and they heal from "within", because at the heart of the world burns the imperishable flame of Iluvatar (as stated in Myths Transformed and the Athrabeth, IIRC). Even more, there is the ennoblement of the Men by the Elves, as a result of the special intervention of Eru:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #153
The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.
All in all, these, plus the existing knowledge of Eru, mentioned previously, ensure some good conditions for good Men to appear and manifest themselves as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menelvagor
The attitude of Elves, Dwarves, Dunedain - and even more of the Hobbits - appears to me as a kind of "innocent atheism", where ethics and moral do not need a religious justification and death can be accepted as natural by the mortal races.
Well, Tolkien was annoyed by the criticism that LotR contained no religion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #165
The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'.
I would attribute this to the fact that Tolkien avoided as much as possible any "overt" reference to real life religion, since he considered that this would be a fatal mistake for myths and fairy tales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor
Are we left with one Ultimate Evil, and a huge array of middling Good-But-Weak characters, and no Great Good?
I wouldn't say so. Esspecially in the Silmarillion, where Melkor is a character, we have the valar who actively oppose him. And they still are active in the Third Age, at least through the Istari (who, at least initially, are said to be peers of Sauron). Tolkien states in Myths Transformed that Sauron is the last mythological evil person, so after that, even if the istari and the elves fade, it seems like a balanced match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor
My greater question would be whether or not Good means Perfection.
I wouldn't say so; at least not in this world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #212
The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may 'go bad' as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds. Even the 'good' Valar as inhabiting the World could at least err
and even more generally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Note ** to Melkor Morgoth essay, Myths Transformed, HoME X
Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menelvagor
I also wonder about the kind of philosophy that is behind all this.
The positive approach is put forth by Finrod:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X
Estel we call it, that is "trust". It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy.
while the negative one is entertained primarily by Melkor, and is referred to by Manwe in the debate over Miriel:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the severance of marriage, Version A, Quendi and Eldar, HoME X
[the]trust in Eru the Lord everlasting, that he is good, and that his works shall all end in good. This the Marrer hath denied, and in this denial is the root of evil, and its end is in despair.
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Last edited by Raynor; 07-18-2007 at 03:54 PM.
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