[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

I see you picked up on the salient points of my post & rightly ignored the irrelevancies.

Whether this comment is meant at face value or as ironic, I don't know. I was pressed for time.

Originally Posted by davem

...he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.

The analogy invoked implies a desire to condemn to death. This cannot be accomplished, even were the character not fictional, as he has already killed himself.

Originally Posted by davem

It is, as I argued, Turin's flaws that makes it possible for us to relate to him as we do. Its his defiance, & refusal to be broken - the fact that he always comes back fighting - that endears him to us, for all the wrong he does.

This is an interesting point. I was sympathising and relating to Túrin right up until, having joined the outlaws, he did nothing to stop them from their crimes. This showed either cowardice or extreme self-centeredness, narcissism. From then on I wanted Túrin to make virtuous, or at least right, choices, fully aware that he would not, and made note of not only the incidences of his continued failed opportunities as well as the motivations behind them. Not a pretty story.

One particular incident comes to mind. Túrin was spelled by Glaurung (as was Nienor later), and therefore it could be argued that his failure to save Finduilas was not his fault but Glaurung's. Such would be a mistaken view. Túrin was so full of wrath and revenge, not to mention guilt at having brought Nargothrond directly to its destruction, and so filled with reckless courage (which is to say foolish - "where angels fear to tread") that it doesn't occur to him not to look in Glaurung's eyes.

Compare this:

Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell. But plucking up courage he spoke again.

Obviously, a comparison of Bilbo and Túrin requires plenty of qualification. Bilbo was not known for courage, but had just enough to "pluck up". One thing is certain, though: Bilbo was not given to rashness. Nor did he have a Morgoth-sized Curse upon his family. That notwithstanding, he hung on and did not come under the dragon-spell. One might object that Tolkien's purpose was entirely different in the two stories. To that I answer that, as Aiwendil has suggested, Tolkien has here yet another contrast, and both fall within his creative ouvre, and are thus worth comparing. They shed light on each other.