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Originally Posted by Lal
Why would he seek to influence Frodo?
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Why would he present something this significant, if he didn't trust it, esspecially since he had some work to do with Frodo about the value of pitty, and how important it is to this quest?
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Originally Posted by Lal
The problem with this approach, that Gollum was already twisted, entirely sidesteps the fact that Gollum had that Ring for 500 years, so anything we see of him, anything we know of him is irrevocably coloured by the twisted, damaged Gollum we see.
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Folwren was referring to a moment when Gollum was not yet present, so your argument doesn't apply there.
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Originally Posted by Mithalwen
LOTR as we know it is a work of fiction ... [img]ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] by someone who kneow how tales developed....
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Originally Posted by Lal
Nobody here is more than subjective as nobody here is Tolkien.
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Yeah, but Tolkien doesn't refute any part of the image of Gollum outside LotR. He reffers to him as damnable and persistent in wickedness.
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Originally Posted by Mithalwen
you would have to take the Hobbit with a bucket of salt
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Why? Elves love to sing. I don't see a problem with them having a lighter side. Tom himself is as light as you can get, yet he is the only one who is impervious to the ring, so I am fine with lightness.
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Originally Posted by davem
A reading of HoM-e gives us so many different versions of the story.
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What exactly doesn't work? I am not reffering to preivous versions, but to the material we have now; the accounts have gone through numerous hands, but nothing disqualifies the accounts of Gollum's deeds. As pointed above, neither does Tolkien.
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Originally Posted by Lal
A threat is not equal to a deed.
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You still ignore that intention defines morality.
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Originally Posted by Lal
there is always a contradictory one
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Too bad for you that it resolutely refuses to appear
. Hope never dies...
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Originally Posted by Lal
Personally I blame the insidious influence of simplistic good/evil paradigms as seen in games and Jackson's films for this view people take today of the text.
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But this is a fundamental battle between good and evil and Tolkien acknowledges it so; subtlety and shades doesn't make it any less so.
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Originally Posted by davem
What's being forgotten is that by this time Gollum was insane, & hardly responsible for his actions.
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I disagree. Tolkien referrs to him as persisten in wickedness, refusing chances of repentance and damnable. Therefore, he is responsible.
It is interesting to note that not even Sauron in Mordor, with everything at his disposal, the one who made the one ring with his own power, can overcome the evil in Gollum, cf Unfinished Tales, Hunt for the Ring; this is a clearly individual evil. If at the root of it, or if the major part of it, was the ring's power, Saruon could have taken control of him. It was not so.