[Raynor]

It doesn't prove it. It may imply it.

Thanks davem, that is really helpful. I can only pray you will excuse me if I don't give you a rep for this tremenous effort, but I am too tired by your game. This is the worst I ever got in any discussion on any Tolkien board.

I can.

This is pretty pointless, but I will ask anyway: how?

I mean someone who thinks they're just reading a fantasy novel.

I am not aware that reading a book merely as a fantasy novel precludes naturally identifying moral or religious elements.

And if the reader is not religious they may not be aware of the 'religious' elements - all they may be aware of is that some of the characters have a religious belief.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

In the secondary world it is 'true' that balrogs are a threat to life & limb. In the primary world it is not. In the secondary world it is 'true' that Morgoth has corrupted the very stuff of the material universe. In the primary world it is not.

But these are not examples of moral truths, but examples of persons and events. You are dodging my question

In the secondary world it may be 'true' that torturing an Elf is a bad thing. In the primary world one would have to prove that Elves actually exist here for that to be true.

But surely you recognise that what is immoral is "torture of living beings" in itself.