[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

First of all, you are not answering my question. Second of all, you are ignoring my post where I argued about fantasy and fairy tales and imaginations being part of one person's universe of ideas; if a certain idea/feeling/propensity is wrong/moral/evil, then this applies for all parts, including fantasy.

Sorry, does this apply to 'everybody' or just to those who hold to your 'norm' - you do seem to keep jumping about on this one. You cannot simply translate events in a secondary world to the primary world & make such sweeping judgements. The reader knows M-e is a fantasy, hence the reader feels free to 'sympathise' with any character - either permanently or temporarily. You seem to wish to place moral sanctions on the reader's imagination - 'If you imagine 'x' you are being immoral.' My position is that the reader's imagination is sacrosanct & I have no right to judge another person on what they choose to imagine or fantasise about. I can judge another person on what they do, but not on what they imagine - particularly where they are imagining doing 'x' in a fantasy world. To imagine torturing an Elf is not the same thing as imagining torturing your next door neighbour. Or in the words of Elizabeth I 'I will not make windows into men's souls.'

It is one thing to enact a character, it is another to adhere to the character's system of values. I hope that answers your questions.

And how does one 'enact a character' without at least temporarilly adhering to that character's system of values? To portray Morgoth in a game requires the player to wipe out & torment the Elven & Human characters in the same way Morgoth did in the story.

Again, you seem to be rejecting the idea that the reader/player can distinguish between fantasy & reality & understands that Morgoth torturing Hurin is absolutely different from Mengele torturing a Jewish child.

No, it does not make one an immoral person to think about it, but surely we recognise it as a momentary lapse? And I might add that there is also a world of difference between fantasising about punching said person and fantasising about torturing and killing them.

Yes - because we recognise that person is a human being, not a literary creation. Fantasising about torturing Mickey Mouse or Barbie is not immoral & doesn't require repentance on the reader's part - though it may be a singularly odd thing to fantasise about. And that's the point - it may be odd to side with Morgoth or the Orcs & cheer them on, but it cannot be called 'immoral' & the idea that it is a symptom of some kind of psychological or spiritual 'flaw'' cannot be taken seriously.

Finding Sauron or an Orc or Smaug interesting literary creations is one thing. But sympathising with and supporting their (fictional) purposes is surely quite another.

Sauron, an Orc or Smaug are not real. They are made up characters doing made up things to other made up characters. I simply cannot see how this can become a 'moral' question. Its a book. More, its a fantasy book. Can we actually imagine non Tolkien, or non fantasy fans generally, taking seriously the idea that someone who sides with Orcs over Elves is 'immoral'?

Look, while I'm 'in' the world of M-e (ie when I'm reading the books) I take the Elves' part & see Morgoth & his hordes as the enemy - because the story wouldn't work (for me) if I didn't. I would find the story made little sense if I didn't take that appproach. But if another reader sides with Morgoth & thinks Ringwraiths are cool, Orcs are sexy, Hobbits deserve all they get & that the average Elf would benefit from a couple of hours on the rack that's not a problem for me. I don't consider such a reader 'immoral' or think they are putting their immortal soul at risk.

EDIT

Raynor - your position seems to me equivalent to two people watching a Tom & Jerry cartoon. One laughs when Jerry drops a piano on Tom's head. The other reacts angrily & demands 'Would you laugh if that happened in real life?' Because finding it funny when a cartoon piano is dropped on a cartoon cat is no different to finding it funny when a real piano is dropped onto a real cat - the thought processes of the person who laughed are exactly the same.