[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I think a part of a person can almost "agree with" some things about some really bad dudes, because we all know there's a part to us that just wants to kick some butt. In both good guys and bad guys, we like the tough guys. We like the guy that can slaughter his enemies, whether they are "good" or "bad," because he's a mean, tough-a, killing machine...and a lot of people find that pretty *cool*. We can very much understand a selfish desire to live, we can empathize with even very nasty and bloody revenge, we can agree to living by one's "own rules" without adhering to rules like "slaughter all Hobbits, because they smell" or better yet, "because it's fun."

You've been ignored a bit I think Durelin and you're bringing up some interesting things. I think in many ways the actions of bad guys sometimes appeal to our basic instincts - to survive. This is something you see in war films (I'm quite a fan of war films) where the bad guy as shown to us is of course the enemy, but in terms of killing people being wrong, the 'good' side are bad guys too; we cheer when the 'good' side win, even if this does mean laying waste to the enemy in horrible ways. Think about Dambusters - in reality, we know it's not exactly a good thing to drown a lot of innocent people! But when we watch the film we are taken out of that and all we want is to see the crews get home. Good and bad all blur in a war film - as they do in Tolkien's work if we sit and consider what he tells us about war, which is to put it basically, that war is A Very Bad Thing.

Of course where bad guys are more clear cut, often we like them because they provide a safe space for us to explore our own dark sides (which we all have, as uncomfortable as it is to confront that!). We are given the space to imagine and to experience another aspect of life without ever having to go out snd do those things ourselves. One of the most valuable functions of dystopian fiction is to serve to remind us all of where we can go very wrong, often from good intentions; bad guys serve a similar purpose, they allow us to explore possibilities in a safe way. Like davem says, we fantasise about wreaking horrible revenge on people who do us wrong and in doing this we actually stop ourselves from acting in that way. Fantasy's inherent element of escape provides that and it's why fantasy, crime, thrillers, horror and 'adult' novels always have done and always will sell very well indeed.

Interestingly, Tolkien gives us the privilege of watching Galadriel's very own moment of megalomaniac fantasising, and then Sam's. His characters do just what we do when confronted with difficult situations (or dark characters!). And there are yet more characters. The Ring in so many ways is symbolic of the Shadow (the repressed side of us all, in Jungian psychology) within us all; for those who it does not trap it provides a release from that Shadow, in the same way that imagining the vampire or the Dragon or Magneto or Saruman can provide release for our own repressed Shadows.

Originally Posted by Hookbill

In Tolkien's work one does grow curious about why characters fell into evil, like Saruman, for example, if he just became evil and no explanation was given, wouldn't you want to know what the reason was? Is this curiosity to know the reasons a delight in evil? I do not think so.

Tolkien leaves us the space to imagine. This is not the only way to handle horror, as many writers handle it graphically. Tolkien instead gives us the monster under the bed who we can only imagine - in this way he positively invites us to utilise the images within our own heads to picture his monsters. This is in fact very healthy for us, as we are encouraged to picture our demons and fears rather than repress them - and we know that Tolkien himself worked out his own lifelong incubus (not the right word, but I can't think of the precise term here) about an all-encompassing, apocalyptic wave in the shape of Numenor's drowning. So many works of literature and Art come from the same kind of source - way too many to list!

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The thought occurs to me that if one is going to take readers to task for a certain fascination with the evil characters, then one should perhaps berate Tolkien himself for the same reason. After all, if he could invent such compelling evil characters (instead of just the bare minimum of evil bad guy needed for some conflict), then perhaps he deserves as much censure as those who have readerly interest in those characters. After all, Tolkien very often portrays the "good guys" in a poor light, and occasionally gives reasons to sympathise with utterly abhorrent characters.

Form, you're probably the very guy to answer this one actually. I've been reading a lot about gothic architecture and art lately, and the thing which strikes me is how Catholicism is a huge influence on these architects. Obviously the old Gothic cathedrals (York Minster, Westminster Abbey etc) were built when Catholicism was the only brand of Christianity around, but as for Gothic from the Victorian period onwards, it existed in a multi-sect world - the interesting thing is that the architects were almost all Catholics. And if you look at Gothic architecture it positively delights in the grotesque - gargoyles, dragons, snakes, demons. In York Minster Chapter House are carvings of people having their eyes gouged out, and in other places I've seen carvings of people merrily engaging in torture, quite smutty designs, all kinds of very irreligious, non pious work.

Then many of our most fantastical writers and artists also turn out to be Catholics - Tolkien's work is especially noted for it's vivid description and wild creations. So in a long-winded way (the spiel was necessary to frame this ) is it a particularly Catholic 'thing' to have a vivid, and even at times quite bloodthirsty imagination? Some of the Catholic rites are very colourful, for example the traditional Catholic crucifix is the only one with an actual depiction of Jesus, I'm sure I don't need to chuck out any more examples of the vivid rites observed and images used!

I can't help thinking that Tolkien's pre-occupation with monsters and bad guys and so on stems at least in part from his religion?

Course, it could also be to do with his status as an ex-serviceman! His near contemporary Mervyn Peake was inspired to write Gormenghast partly due to his experiences in liberating the Death camps.

I've not even started on the ramifications of the men dreamed up by the Bronte sisters yet, and of course of the heaving passions they provoke in women the world over.