[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Surely you will not tell me that you are trying to draw some kind of twisted moral equivalence between the live-and-let-live (for the most part) Elves, and the murderous near-automatons of a ruthless and compassionless overlord?

I suppose that more than anything, I'm pointing out the great flaw in Middle-Earth, which is that the evil are doomed to evil with no chance or choice of repentance. An orc is unable to repent of its "evil" - the evil is inherent in its blood. And, if this is the case, and morality is defined by intent, not genetics, then orcs are not immoral.

The argument that orcs are evil is similar to labelling the mentally ill as evil. They don't choose to hear voices commanding them to murder. They are doomed to it.

Melkor and the fallen Maiar and Valar may be evil by intent, but not the orcs and the trolls. They are victims as much as the Elves and Men.

Originally Posted by Gorbag, lotr

What d'you say? - if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.

The passage in the Stairs of Cirith Ungol always gets me. You see that orcs are slaves of Sauron, as much to be pitied as hated.

If anyone thinks the Goth contingent is confined to teenagers, you are gravely mistaken. There are people of all ages who are miserable, and would like nothing more than to drag everyone else down into their misery with them -- the idea that someone, somewhere is happy makes them go postal.

None of the Goths I know are depressed, and none of the depressive people I know are Goths. I'd say being a Goth is more about being different than about being depressed. Also, as Lalwende says, the Goth subculture, in my experience, is unusually intelligent.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Some of us indeed might be pinko commies, gays, ethnic minorities or 'satanic' atheists and pagans.

Some are all four at once.