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Old 03-05-2007, 04:06 PM   #362
The 1,000 Reader
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps.
Posts: 527
The 1,000 Reader is still gossiping in the Green Dragon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
Additionally, Sauron during the War of the Ring can be considered far weaker than he was in his original form, since he was not in possession of a large portion of his power (though he is said to be in "rapport" with it at all times), and he was also incarnate, having "died" several times already. Gandalf was, of course, limited similarly, but the point is that both were.
That doesn't really say who was stronger. It just says that both weren't at the 100% they were at in the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
You sound pretty positive. Maybe you could share your iron-clad evidence for this assertion?
It's right in the book dude. The quote was provided on the last page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
So Sauron doles out some extra "demonic force" to his servants from time to time? Why now?
Apparently, Sauron cared more of the war than his ring at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
Why not before the Nazgul went to The Shire, and why didn't they all receive some?
Likely because their strength would have gotten the attention of the elves or an Istari, who would rally up the people or something of that sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
This isn't even Middle-earth vocabulary: "demonic force" is a reference to the impression a reader gets from the Witch-King, not something Sauron is capable of dispensing.
It's a literal force. The book even says that when Sauron appoints him as the leader of the host assaulting Minas Tirith that he's given an added demonic force, and he does appear more powerful than he was in earlier confrontations. It is not an impression like fear: it's specifically stated to be an added demonic force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
The Witch-King, even with all his buddies, would not challenge the power of ring-bearing Galadriel.
That's because Galadriel was very mighty (in the magical arts at the very least) and she had an entire realm of warrior elves at her disposal. Also, Dol Guldur, which was commanded by Khamul the Easterling, assaulted Lothlorien three times: the Nazgul did attempt to defeat her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
Gandalf had a Ring of Power, too, and was even greater in innate power than Galadriel. The Witch-King had fled from Glorfindel (see Appendix A), and yet Glorfindel, even after his enhancement through reincarnation, is said to be almost an equal to the Maiar. How, please, could a mere Man (originally mighty, perhaps, but certainly not even one of the greatest of the Atani) who was hopelessly enslaved to Sauron approach this kind of spiritual power?
The Witch-King was skilled with the magical arts, likely was a great warrior, destroyed Arnor, and in the siege of Minas Tirith was given additional power. Gandalf clearly was not passing the situation off as a minor detail or something casual, and as I've said before, being a Maia, while somewhat of an advantage, is not a clear-cut victory. The higher-ranked beings of Middle-Earth have lost countless times. Even if Gandalf was wise to those events, that does not mean that he was assured victory due to his origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
The answer is that he could not, and I have never seen any shred of evidence to support the idea.
That is only your opinion in the end, and the scene in the book where Gandalf met the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith was most definitely not a confrontation where one combatant was depicted with any sort of strength over the other. Indeed, if the Professor gave one of the two any sort of visible edge, the whole point of the scene would be void. The scene was not to tell us that Gandalf would be a safety-blanket or that the Witch-King was about to whup him to the moon: it was to build tension and have us be unsure of who'd win.

I grow tired of debating this subject, so unless you want to press the matter on, I'll stay away from this discussion.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that."

-A History of Villains
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