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Old 03-04-2007, 10:46 PM   #358
The 1,000 Reader
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps.
Posts: 527
The 1,000 Reader is still gossiping in the Green Dragon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
It wasn't a fault of Tolkien's, it was a fault of the filmmakers'. This idea that the Witch-King is suddenly beefed up enough to match Gandalf was not Tolkien's. he Witch-King never approaches Gandalf's level in the books.
Actually, Gandalf was nervous about confronting the Witch-King, as evidenced in the discussion with Denethor. Gandalf was grim on the matter, and did not answer with a direct yes or no. The strength the two had was not one-sided in favor of another. If Gandalf knew the Witch-King was no problem, he would not be grim and indecisive on the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
There is a letter that indicates that the Witch-King was in some way enhanced for The Return of the King, but it's not clear whether Tolkien means narratively enhanced, or literally souped-up by Sauron.
It's literally. When placed in command of the armies, he was given "An added demonic force."

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
Sauron and Gandalf were equals in their beginnings,
And where do you get this from? If you recall, Gandalf was actually afraid of going to Middle-Earth and facing Sauron. Since Sauron was already weakened yet Gandalf still was fearful, Gandalf was certainly not on the same level as Sauron in the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
so how could a weakened Sauron enhance his fundamentally mortal servant to a level beyond (or even equal to) one of Sauron's own peers?
He obviously did, otherwise the Balrog-slaying Gandalf would not have been grim on the possibility of a confrontation. Besides, if Gandalf could have taken out the Witch-King in three seconds, the entire purpose of having their confrontation would be null and void.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
To what degree Gandalf's Istar limitations were adjusted is unclear, but even while under those constraints he was capable of defeating a Balrog without violating the rules. The Balrog was unquestionably mightier than the Witch-King in written Tolkien, though the movies' conception of him may be different. If there's incongruence here, it's Jackson & co.'s, not Tolkien's.
We don't know that. As Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf killed a Balrog. As Gandalf the White, who was more powerful, Gandalf was uncertain of the victor in a bout between him and the Morgul Lord. There is a good chance that the added demonic force could have indeed elevated the Witch-King to a level where he would be a threat to Gandalf the White.

As for lesser beings defeating greater beings, that's strewn nearly everywhere in Tolkien's works. Huan beat Sauron, Elendil and Gil-Galad beat Sauron when he had the Ring, Luthien bested Morgoth, the numerous dragon slayings, dwarves killing Thingol, Morgoth eventually dying by the hand of Turin, Ungoliant defeating Morgoth, the Witch-King's defeat at the hands of Eowyn and Merry, Sam beating Shelob, and ultimately Frodo, Sam and Gollum finishing Sauron. Just because Gandalf's a Maia doesn't mean he's fine against anyone of lower rank.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that."

-A History of Villains
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