[Rhod the Red]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Not really, as even if the shirt would go to Sauron, imagine the privilege that might be bestowed on you for taking him such a priceless item? And bear in mind that these Orcs were seen not long before discussing the possibility of retirement, of being far from battle and being independent of Sauron - bringing him a shirt like that might make that possibility very real.



I don't think Tolkien himself always saw them in black and white terms, especially given the incident mentioned above which he saw the need to insert into the text. So I still think its not quite as extreme as davem points out, yet they are given little respect as fighters and warriors. Not giving them respect in that way doesn't preclude us (or Tolkien) from offering some glimpses of compassion or understanding of them as people. I think what davem is bringing up could be down to the manner of their fighting - why would anyone respect an enemy fighter if that enemy fought 'dirty'? You see it in sport - the losing team/competitor is lauded if they play well, but if they cheat they are villified. Think about Maradona. Would he ever dare to enter England after the handball incident? perhaos it's that if the enemy is simply not 'sporting' then he loses all respect? And Tolkien was a sportsman, so that concept would ahve been importnat to him.

Thanks, very interesting!