[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

However, as I have pointed previously, it may be that Eru could not or would not remove corruption in creation until the end of time. This is something which is mentioned in the Atrabeth; Myths Transformed also notes that the eradication of Melkor (or, if I may note, of his corruption) is not possible without the destruction of Arda - which points again to the end of the world.

Well, it may be he could not or would not - but isn't he omnipotent? And the point is the reader's feelings about Eru's behaviour. The reader is in a difficult position if he or she finds the behaviour of Eru not fitting with his supposed character, or with the reader's own moral value system.

No, that is not how I understood Tolkien; God remains the ultimate source of good; however, we may not assume his omniscience, therefore not his judgement - and we also sin; to hope to have our sins forgiven, we must have mercy too. He was talking about being "extravagantly generous" in this aspect. In this, I believe he was also reffering to the Christian mercy, or to the love which forgives everything. In his comments to Frodo, he was indeed talking about two scales of morality which we must apply: absolute ideal for ourselves - and mercy for others.

Fine but this a) assumes Eru = the Christian God & b) leads us to ask exactly how destroying all the Numenoreans equates to 'forgiving everything'?

Ok, please present the context from which you derive that children like cruel justice.

Chesterton once remarked that the children in whose company he saw Maeterlinck's Blue Bird were dissatisfied “because it did not end with a Day of Judgement, and it was not revealed to the hero and the heroine that the Dog had been faithful and the Cat faithless.” “For children,” he says, “are innocent and love justice; while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.” Andrew Lang was confused on this point. He was at pains to defend the slaying of the Yellow Dwarf by Prince Ricardo in one of his own fairy-stories. ”I hate cruelty,” he said, ”. . . but that was in fair fight, sword in hand, and the dwarf, peace to his ashes! died in harness.”

Yet it is not clear that “fair fight” is less cruel than “fair judgement”; or that piercing a dwarf with a sword is more just than the execution of wicked kings and evil stepmothers—which Lang abjures: he sends the criminals (as he boasts) to retirement on ample pensions. That is mercy untempered by justice. It is true that this plea was not addressed to children but to parents and guardians, to whom Lang was recommending his own Prince Prigio and Prince Ricardo as suitable for their charges. It is parents and guardians who have classified fairystories as Juvenilia. And this is a small sample of the falsification of values that results. ....OFS

If this is your final position, then fine by me. If no mather the evidence, you persist in certain personal interpretation, it is your own right and choice and I respect that. However, if you imply there is "objective" (if I may say so) fault, then there is ground for discussion.

This is not a case where an 'objective' interpretation can ever over-ride a subjective response. As Child & SPM have stated, this act of Eru's causes a serious problem for some readers, as it does not sit with his stated attributes of mercy & compassion. It is an act which many readers find unpleasant, yet those same readers love the world Tolkien has created - its just they feel that Eru is the wrong God for that kind of world - as if the real God of Arda has been kidnapped & replaced by some vengeful psychopath.

And so, we return back to the beginning - if Eru didn't exist, & the world was basically a polytheistic one ruled over by the generally decent & well-meaning Valar who get things right most of the time but occasionally cock things up big time (like trying to destroy the invading Numenorean fleet & going a bit too far & accidentally drowning the Island) it would be fine - but bring in an 'all wise, all powerful, benevolent & loving' God who also wreaks havoc & mass slaughter & the problems start...