[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

When did I say any Numenorean child chose to be evil? What I argued, concerning the children, was that they were tainted. If you look back, you will see that I argued that chosing sides was possible at most at the beginning of Sauron's corruption. Please don't misrepresent my arguments.

And therefore they had no free will in any real sense for Eru to take away. Thus, any restrictions on his actions imposed by a desire not to remove their free will are obviated. He does not need to concern himself with their free will at all, because Sauron has already taken it away - which removes the justification you offer for his actions.

False analogy; the germans were not tainted by Sauron. And the judge is in one case Eru, in the other (this letter) humans. Of humans, Tolkien said they should judge others with utmost mercy, if they are to expect mercy. I believe this letter it is in the spirit of that idea.

Which means what, exactly? That an action which is 'morally wrong' for a human is morally right for God? Which means, what, that Divine morality & human morality may be totally opposed?

According to the Chronology volume of Hammond and Scull, Tolkien first wrote of Numenor in about 1936 or 1937. Which, in that situation, is of secondary importance.

And, being aware of that fact, I stated it was in the '40's that the account of Numenor was introduced & developed, not that it was in the 40's that Tolkien began writing about it. And besides, the point about possible influence of Nazism on Tolkien's thought is not contradicted by the 30's date, as the Nazi movement was on the rise in the 30's.

IIRC, I was only arguing that what he wrote in paragraph does not exclude religion - which was your point.

I thought we were to refrain from telling each other what our 'points' were.....

This kind of justice? Let me ask you again: where does Tolkien say that children like cruel justice?

Again, I think the problem is that are ignoring the spirit & implications of statements made. You refuse to accept that Miriel was one of the faithful because no-one has yet given you a quote in which Tolkien wrote 'Miriel was one of the faithful.' Does Tolkien anywhere say 'Frodo was a good person who sacrificed himself for others'? But does he need to? Is the reader not capable of picking up hints?

Since I dont know if you mean this literary, that it was their intent to remove Aman from Arda, or metaphorically, that they wanted the danger on Aman removed, please provide the quote you are reffering to.

The Valar lay down their delegated power & appeal to God, & receive the power & permission to deal with the situation: the old world is broken & changed. A chasm is opened in the sea & Tar-Calion (sic) & his armada is engulfed. Numenor itself on the edge of the rift topples & vanishes for ever with all its glory in the abyss.

Now, the 'situation' referred to is clearly not the general behaviour of the Numenoreans - which had been going on for a good while. The situation, clearly, is the attack of the fleet - this is clear because the result of the Valar's action is to open a chasm & engulf the fleet. The fact that the fate of Numenor is described in the passive (its on the edge of the rift & topples over) implies that it was a side effect, not a direct consequence.

And I presume that you think that Eru didn't live up to this, at least in the case of Numenor. However, when I have asked if there was any other way to end this story in a better manner, no viable option was offered. Accusing him of doing worse than he could, although we don't know of doing that any better, is, well, wrong.

If a new TV has a blurry, out of focus picture & distorted sound I can declare there is something wrong with it - even if I couldn't make a TV set myself, or even fix the faults on that one.

What you're missing is that many of us are uncomfortable with Eru's behaviour. Telling us 'Well, Tolkien said it was fine' is not to the point. If I said 'Celery makes me sick' that would be a fact. For you to respond 'Well, I've checked with a nutritionist & she says it can't make you sick, & there's nothing else to eat' is to completely misunderstand the situation & ignore the simple fact that celery makes me sick. Throw up all the quotes you want but it won't address the real issue of how many readers feel about what happened.