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Old 02-20-2007, 01:58 PM   #221
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
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Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
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Where he does intervene his motives are obscure & cannot be attributed to anything other than aesthetic considerations in most cases.
I doubt that he saved Gandalf or helped finnish the ring's quest for aesthetic considerations. I am curious what considerations you were having in mind.
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One can judge any character (transcendent or otherwise) on their actions & what we know of their motivations.
Of what motivations do you know? I know only those I presented, which you reject.
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A writer cannot simply invent an omnipotent character who can do anything & ask his reader to just accept that character - anymore than he can just invent a character that pulls whole roast ducks out of his ears without giving a convincing explanation for how & why he does it & expect the reader to accept it.
What do you mean? That for Eru to be convincing for you, Tolkien has to explain his omnipotence?
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Well, I'm sorry, but no author has the right to tell his readers not to judge his characters' actions or motivations - if he does that he is either seeking to dominate his readers or he knows that his characters' behaviour is illogical.
We don't even know the mystery of Men, but you require to know the mystery of Eru himself. Or judge him by not knowing that. Judge him if you will, but your analysis will be marred by its partiality of data, and thus, most likely, logically flawed.
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I think its pretty clear that Tolkien found the actions of the Valar to be illogical in many cases
What would be one such illogical action?
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to resort to telling his readers 'you aren't allowed to make judgements about this character's actions', or 'you aren't smart (or enlightened) enough to understand what this character did' is incredibly patronising - & for the record I don't think this is what Tolkien meant those notes to mean - I think you misunderstand his intentions.
For the record, I have said none of those things. I only stated that he warns against judging Manwe, for the given reasons.
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Yeees, but you were answering a point I made, & in that point I was referring to Morgoth's final state,
I disagree; I was addressing your statement that "Numenor requires Eru's incarnation into Arda" by discussing the necessity of it due to Melkor's immense power which he invested in corrupting Arda. You can backtrack that yourself.
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Either Arda was really 'marred' from the beginning or it wasn't.
Ainulindale is a work of progress in time. Not all that it reveals happens instantl; its seeds are present in actual Ea, but they take time to develop. Therefore, I see no problem with Arda being free for a while from the strong corruption of Melkor it later has.
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Finrod clearly states that Eru will not allow himself to be deprived of any of his own
Your generalisation is unwarranted; the initial quote didn't say "any" of his own, while clearly stating a difference between his own and the Enemy. That Eru could consider Melkor his own is remotely possible, but at least not resulting from this quote, which hints otherwise.
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