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Animalmother · 01-24-2007, 10:43 PM

For twenty years, Saruman kept orcs employed below ground inside the ring of Isengard, out of public view, developing industry and breeding human-orc hybrids. In the last two years before the War of the Ring, he may have recruited Uruk-hai warriors in larger and larger numbers, keeping them in barracks inside Isengard and paying them in "man-flesh" and the goods he manufactured. Thus, the operation escaped the notice of the White Council.

Where would he get man-flesh? He spent centuries in the East of Middle Earth. He had extensive contacts with the Easterlings. He purchased human slaves from the Easterlings, importing them through the wilds south of Mirkwood to the fringes of Fangorn, thence to Isengard.

Saruman was a successful Machiavellian, feigning goodness while doing evil.

The account Gandalf gives to the Council of Elrond of his dialogue with Saruman is not plausible. Saruman's Machiavellian argument must have been that it's time to fight fire with fire. Problems: the Elves are leaving, the Dwarves are too few, Men are not tough enough to stand up against Mordor's orcs. Solution: Breed human-orc hybrids, recruit our own orcs, and if possible use the One Ring ! Thus, some trace of the once free peoples and their cultures will survive. Saruman argued as Machiavelli argued, that sometimes, to do good, you must use some evil. If you don't, your opponent who is totally without scruple will defeat you.

But Gandalf does not present Saruman's argument this way. Instead, he has Saruman urging Gandalf to ally with Sauron. This is not plausible. Saruman would have known that Gandalf would never agree to such an alliance. Saruman would have used the persuasive Machiavellian argument with some hope that Gandalf would agree. Gandalf probably feared that if he presented Saruman's argument accurately, some at the Council of Elrond, such as Boromir and possibly the Dwarves, might have been persuaded by it. Thus, Gandalf thought it better to present a distorted account of the Saruman-Gandalf dialogue, which made Saruman's argument look completely depraved and unacceptable.

01-24-2007, 10:43 PM	#13
Animalmother Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Cunning Saruman For twenty years, Saruman kept orcs employed below ground inside the ring of Isengard, out of public view, developing industry and breeding human-orc hybrids. In the last two years before the War of the Ring, he may have recruited Uruk-hai warriors in larger and larger numbers, keeping them in barracks inside Isengard and paying them in "man-flesh" and the goods he manufactured. Thus, the operation escaped the notice of the White Council. Where would he get man-flesh? He spent centuries in the East of Middle Earth. He had extensive contacts with the Easterlings. He purchased human slaves from the Easterlings, importing them through the wilds south of Mirkwood to the fringes of Fangorn, thence to Isengard. Saruman was a successful Machiavellian, feigning goodness while doing evil. The account Gandalf gives to the Council of Elrond of his dialogue with Saruman is not plausible. Saruman's Machiavellian argument must have been that it's time to fight fire with fire. Problems: the Elves are leaving, the Dwarves are too few, Men are not tough enough to stand up against Mordor's orcs. Solution: Breed human-orc hybrids, recruit our own orcs, and if possible use the One Ring ! Thus, some trace of the once free peoples and their cultures will survive. Saruman argued as Machiavelli argued, that sometimes, to do good, you must use some evil. If you don't, your opponent who is totally without scruple will defeat you. But Gandalf does not present Saruman's argument this way. Instead, he has Saruman urging Gandalf to ally with Sauron. This is not plausible. Saruman would have known that Gandalf would never agree to such an alliance. Saruman would have used the persuasive Machiavellian argument with some hope that Gandalf would agree. Gandalf probably feared that if he presented Saruman's argument accurately, some at the Council of Elrond, such as Boromir and possibly the Dwarves, might have been persuaded by it. Thus, Gandalf thought it better to present a distorted account of the Saruman-Gandalf dialogue, which made Saruman's argument look completely depraved and unacceptable.