View Single Post
Old 01-19-2007, 08:52 PM   #9
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bricho
Eru's definition of what constitutes guilt and innocence is very, very strict indeed.
Here's your answer:
Quote:
Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws.
Flawlessness is Eru's standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
Melkor's discordant theme and even his thoughts are a product of Eru.
Melkor's first flaw was to think wrongly of Ilúvatar: "and it seemed to {Melkor} that Ilúvatar took not thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren." Melkor's second flaw was to desire that the Void be not empty before it was Ilúvatar's will to fill it. His third flaw was to isolate himself from his peers. His fourth was, of course, based on these first three: the discordant theme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
And Eru allowed this to happen, but as is said above, "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me". That is one of the essential mysteries of Eru, why he makes Melkor the way he does, and allows Melkor the freedom to be part of this creation; who knows why evil is part of Eru's plan, but it is.
I have already answered the contention that evil comes from Eru. To summarize again, the text indicates that this is not so. 'Evil being a part of Eru's plan' must be understood in this context. Thus, evil may be permitted to exist (or else Eru does violence to the very freedom with which he has created the Ainur), but Eru's introduction of the 2nd & 3rd themes indicates that he works against evil. Eru is declaring that evil cannot undo his purpose; rather, Eru makes of Morgoth's evil a tool "in the devising of things more wonderful..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
And if you look at the books, then evil is part of Eru's plan. It has its origins in him.
But Elrond, one of Tolkien's truth speakers, says, "Nothing is evil in the beginning. Not even Sauron was so."Elrond cannot be wrong without doing violence to the story of LotR. Therefore, evil cannot have its origins in Eru.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote