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Old 01-16-2007, 09:15 PM   #52
littlemanpoet
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Join Date: Jan 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne
If there is something better for them after death, would that not mean that Eru rewarded them for invading Aaman?
This presumes that those who are punished for their rebellion by invading Aman, would receive such a reward they have lost by virtue of their rebellion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
please note that I have simply used logic to reach the only conclusion that can be reached.
I did as well. And I expected nothing more.
Quite right. However, you allowed both sides of an impossibility to stand, thus creating a logical impossibility:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
"How is it possible that Eru, being good, did allow the innocent to die?" ..... I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macalaure
If there were innocents among those, then, according to the sense of justice I think at least most of us share, this was not a just act.
With "sense of justice" you have introduced a subjective, and therefore mutable standard against which to judge the question. If a reader wishes to reach one's own conclusions with which one feels comfortable, then such mutable standards are fine. However, if a reader wants to understand the text based on its own internal reality, one must use the only consistent standard available to anyone, which is logic. Thus: If Eru is revealed by the text as good, then Eru is good. Further, if Numenoreans are revealed by the text as innocent, then they are innocent. Eru is indeed revealed throughout The Silmarillion as good, and the Numenoreans are revealed in the Akallebęth, as falling deeper into error and wrong and evil throughout the history of Numenor. Thus, by the standard available to us, text and logic, there were no innocents left on Numenor when it was drowned by Eru.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macalaure
Is it even possible that Eru isn't entirely good? I think so. After all, Melkor was an offspring of his thought, and Melkor's dischords had their source in Eru as well, as is stated.
The text:
Quote:
But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar.
Quote:
"Nothing is evil in the beginning. Not even Sauron was so."--Elrond
So states the text. Therefore, Eru cannot have been anything but entirely good from the beginning, and the text never shows any alteration from this. Melkor's discord was from his own imaginings and do not derive from Ilúvatar, as stated in the text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
There is of course the very great possibility that notions of good and evil simply don't come into this. They are, after all, creations of human minds. So where would that leave Eru?
Your statement lacks the self-evidence it purports on two counts: first, the downfall has everything to do with good and evil. Just read the text. Do note that I am not saying that that is the only thing it's about, but it most certainly is there. Second, the claim that good and evil are creations of human minds is debatable. Thus, your question, "where does that leave Eru", is easily answered: it leaves Eru where the text leaves Eru.

Last edited by littlemanpoet; 01-16-2007 at 09:23 PM.
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