Yes, of course
TM I knew that...umm definitely. Welcome to the 'downs I hope you enjoy it and find some things you like.
Lal, great stuff...and I think you put it better than I ever could than where I was trying to get out in the other forum.
I think the great use of Tolkien's
deus ex machina comes in the sense that he is able to make it fit within the story. Just throwing in any DeM anywhere in any situation would indeed be dangerous to the story! As this would make the story go to a point where it's simply unbelievable and we lose touch with the characters accomplishments...simply because they were 'bailed out' by higher powers.
Tolkien's use of it seems much more complex and thought out than using a DeM to move on and get our heroes out of a sticky situation. It does get our heroes out of some sticky situations, but by no means do I feel it burdens the story; or is 'dangerous' to the story. It actually enhances the story (in my view).
You bring up the Gollum-Frodo-Sam in the Sammath Naur scene, where I think we can conclude that Eru did get his hands involved and helped Frodo out. However, this isn't simply Tolkien trying to figure out how to destroy the Ring so he has Eru come in to make it happen. It all ties in with the rest of the story...the motifs of Pity and Mercy.
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Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest hounour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.'~Letter 246
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Eru didn't do it because he could, but because Frodo had shown the capability of Pity and Mercy. Frodo's pity of Gollum and sparing his life, won Frodo his own Pity to the highest point...grace.
The two key morals stressed throughout the entire book are
Pity and Mercy. Gandalf instructs Frodo first about Bilbo's Pity towards Gollum and its this Pity that me
'rule the fate of many.' Aragorn, Theoden, and company offer Grima and Saruman Pity at several points throughout the story. Frodo's Pity towards Gollum, then here at the end Eru rewards Frodo by relieving him from the burden of the Ring.
I think it's much deeper than 'I need to find a way to solve this...umm Eagles come on.' It runs much more complex than simply a way to move our heroes on in the Story, but as you so eloquently put...
I suppose to me whether something is a deus ex machina or not is whether it fits into the context of the story and whether it is jarring or not
Thinlo, I wonder if there would be DeM in the movies...well of course the Eagles. Even if a non-reader didn't know that Eagles were creatures of Manwe, they could surmise that they are some sort of powerful force. Hence why there were so many threads after the movies
'Why doesn't an Eagle fly Frodo to Mount Doom'. Also, I think you may be able to view the Dead Army as a DeM, and this was a rather cheap one (the way Jackson does it) in my opinion. Since:
1) The Dead Army just looks flat out awful on screen, just a blob of slime.
2) They pretty much just come in and wipe out everything in their path to win the battle. It makes the Rohirrim's arrival look pretty much useless as the Dead Army just comes in to save the day anyway. A very poor way to end the battle of Pelennor Fields in my view, and a very cheap way to end it.
Tolkien uses the Dead Army, but not to the extent where they completely save the day. They are important to the story and he makes it work as these were cursed spirits who needed to fulfill their oath to lift the curse. They do help out, but like the Eagles were used sparingly and the only effect they play is scaring away the corsairs.
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Yeah as you can see I haven't really made up my mind~Rune
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That's perfectly fine. It's good sometimes to just throw everything out there and at the fan. At one time a fellow downer complimented me that I wasn't afraid to simply just speculate and throw things out there...hopefully I still have this
. Anyway, no need to fear, just kind of spill everything out...or should I say type?