The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

Alcuin · 11-01-2006, 04:03 PM

Maybe you’re right, Raynor, but your alternative is that the Dúnedain fortifications in the barrow-downs and their defenders survived the assault of Angmar and its troops. If that was the case, why then would the “remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan [hold] out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or take refuge in the [Old] Forest”? I think you are arguing that fortifications in the Barrow-Downs survived; why then would there be only a “remnant of … the Dúnedain” at the end of the war remaining in Cardolan, and why on earth would they flee their prepared military positions in the Barrow-Downs for the Forest right next door? They should have stayed in their fortifications, safe, secure, with victuals and whatever pleasures of life they salvaged before their outlying homes and farms were overrun and destroyed.

I think that had the military fortifications survived the invasion, then this passage does not make sense: “A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.” To me that implies that the attack stalled in western Cardolan, because while Rhudaur is occupied after the war and the description of Cardolan suggests it was ravaged along with its castles and fortified towns, but there is no mention of destruction in Arthedain, which was just north of the Great Road. Since we know that Angmar was repulsed by Elves from Lindon and reinforcements called by Elrond from Lórien, I think that the invasion force stalled in northwestern Cardolan: it is likely that it did not long occupy that region, and that it either retreated to Rhudaur or was destroyed. I don’t think the leaders of Angmar had time to desecrate the tombs of the barrow-downs; however, they learned that they existed, and of what military importance they could be: hence the infestation of barrow-wights sent over 200 years later.

As for “smoking them out,” I believe American and South Vietnamese forces used chemical grenades and explosives against Viet Cong tunnels during the 1960s and early ’70s. These efforts were largely unsuccessful: in the past decade, the government of Vietnam has opened part of its extensive tunnel-and-bunker system to foreign visitors. Americans in particular have been both surprised and impressed with its enormous size (hundreds if not thousands of miles, apparently), the complexity of the underground facilities (hospitals, command posts, storage and munitions depots, barracks, kitchens, machine and repair shops, communications, and even electric generators in some instances), and their ingenious defenses (including water barriers and traps, secret entrances behind secret entrances, defensive geometry, and even defenses against fire – and smoke!).

The only means the soldiers of Angmar would have to accomplish this would be to light a fire outside and try to fan the smoke into the barrow, which could have been countered reasonably well by placing a wet blanket across the entrance. Because they were covered in part by earth, the barrows did not burn, so you could not “smoke out” defenders as you would in a partially wooden structure like a castle, where you could set fire to the wood in the building and force the people inside (and above the burning) to come out and take their chances or suffocate.

11-01-2006, 04:03 PM	#30
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	Maybe you’re right, Raynor, but your alternative is that the Dúnedain fortifications in the barrow-downs and their defenders survived the assault of Angmar and its troops. If that was the case, why then would the “remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan [hold] out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or take refuge in the [Old] Forest”? I think you are arguing that fortifications in the Barrow-Downs survived; why then would there be only a “remnant of … the Dúnedain” at the end of the war remaining in Cardolan, and why on earth would they flee their prepared military positions in the Barrow-Downs for the Forest right next door? They should have stayed in their fortifications, safe, secure, with victuals and whatever pleasures of life they salvaged before their outlying homes and farms were overrun and destroyed. I think that had the military fortifications survived the invasion, then this passage does not make sense: “A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.” To me that implies that the attack stalled in western Cardolan, because while Rhudaur is occupied after the war and the description of Cardolan suggests it was ravaged along with its castles and fortified towns, but there is no mention of destruction in Arthedain, which was just north of the Great Road. Since we know that Angmar was repulsed by Elves from Lindon and reinforcements called by Elrond from Lórien, I think that the invasion force stalled in northwestern Cardolan: it is likely that it did not long occupy that region, and that it either retreated to Rhudaur or was destroyed. I don’t think the leaders of Angmar had time to desecrate the tombs of the barrow-downs; however, they learned that they existed, and of what military importance they could be: hence the infestation of barrow-wights sent over 200 years later. As for “smoking them out,” I believe American and South Vietnamese forces used chemical grenades and explosives against Viet Cong tunnels during the 1960s and early ’70s. These efforts were largely unsuccessful: in the past decade, the government of Vietnam has opened part of its extensive tunnel-and-bunker system to foreign visitors. Americans in particular have been both surprised and impressed with its enormous size (hundreds if not thousands of miles, apparently), the complexity of the underground facilities (hospitals, command posts, storage and munitions depots, barracks, kitchens, machine and repair shops, communications, and even electric generators in some instances), and their ingenious defenses (including water barriers and traps, secret entrances behind secret entrances, defensive geometry, and even defenses against fire – and smoke!). The only means the soldiers of Angmar would have to accomplish this would be to light a fire outside and try to fan the smoke into the barrow, which could have been countered reasonably well by placing a wet blanket across the entrance. Because they were covered in part by earth, the barrows did not burn, so you could not “smoke out” defenders as you would in a partially wooden structure like a castle, where you could set fire to the wood in the building and force the people inside (and above the burning) to come out and take their chances or suffocate.