[Mänwe]

A - Aim,

Well the aim is obvious, to attempt an answer at Mansun’s queries and to comment on all views that have been posted so far. Without of course repeating what has already been most eloquently viewed by all here, though there being a noticeable exception. I am also aware that my post coming so late in the proceedings may hark back to points already discussed, though it is my intention to add my own ideas.

A(i) - For Clarity,

There has been discussion on the meanings of the words ‘magia’ and ‘goetia’, both of which only personal but rational and well thought definitions have been used. Boromir88, however Tolkien does go so far as to define a term, ‘goetia’. Its definition is to be found amongst the maze of footnotes accompanying the letters. The following text is in support of littlemanpoet, for it is my belief also, that Tolkien is more worried about “motive then type”.

A(i)a)

“‘155] 1. Greek γοητεία (γόης, sorcerer); the English form Goety is defined in the O.E.D. as 'witchcraft or magic performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits; necromancy.'‘ – (Footnotes)

However this only goes to support the definitions that have already been voiced in this thread. And with limited other actual meaning of the word offered by Tolkien, I think we must make do with the above definition and those provided by established dictionaries. ‘goetia’ is therefore sorcery and necromancy, the summoning and control of spirits; necromancy and the influence of events and physical phenomenon.

Then we have ‘magia’, and I am in full agreement with the definition that is offered up here. To quote;

A(i)b)

‘‘But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction between magia and goetia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goetia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use.’” – (Letter #155)

The presence of a distinction is proof enough the terms cannot be the same, however to me Tolkien seems to be reluctant to concede there being one. He is never clear cut on the issue, perhaps it is another of those mistakes he has made with his trilogy, like that of the prose involving the ‘return’ of Gandalf.

“I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word;” – (Letter #155)

And to define ‘magia’ through the conventional means we get ‘witchcraft’ which defined further takes us full circle to ‘sorcery’.

The only difference I think therefore is this ‘latent’ distinction given, that ‘magia’ is white magic; used by “good”, and ‘goetia’ for evil purposes and thus used by “evil”. And the fact there is some evidence for one affecting the physical realm opposed to the mind and body.

That as a definition is highly convoluted and hard to continue through with debate, yet it is not that reason I choose to adopt the easier option! Which is I think to entertain the idea that they are the same and may be used by either. Agreeing with Boromir88 that it is motives that defines whether it is “good” or “evil”.

I do not think we should confuse things further with religion. Radagastly you say that Tolkien was a Catholic, this is true, however there was no hint of religion in LoTR, if there was it was not his intention. At least not in the context of ‘real world’ religions you speak of. LoTR had simple beliefs for those inhabiting Middle Earth.

“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world.” – (Letter #142)


B(i) – Who might command ‘magic’?

B(i)a) – Witch King

We all have identified him as one who might command the use of our friendly and easily definable terms! The evidence for,

Boromir88 again provides us with our first piece;

Originally posted by Boromir88

The Nazgul got theirs from their rings:

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old~ The Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

And for seconds;

"…cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone. Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder." (Return of the King, The Siege of Gondor)

B(i)a)(i) - Source

I would refer to the quote I quoted from Boromir88 in B(i)a).

B(i)b) - Mouth of Sauron

Evidence for him being able to use ‘magic’ again has been provided.

“...and because of his cunning he grew even higher in the Lords' favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron.” - (Return of the King, The Black Gate Opens)

Very little, but sufficient.

B(i)b)(i) - Source

I would refer to the quote I quoted in B(i)b). The source was Sauron.

B(ii) - Who was the more powerful?

It was first discussed as to the ‘what’ the Mouth of Sauron was. Littemanpoet stated that,

“So the Mouth of Sauron is 'into' sorcery, for he is apparently using the power of evil spirits to prolong his life far beyond that of his fellow humans; but he, unlike the ringwraiths, is not undead.”

Boromir88 makes an exemplary rebuke of this point, highlighting the fact that he was of Black Numenorean descendant, thus his life span would be considerably longer than the norm. I would also add a quote of my own to support this view, for I am in agreement with Boromir88 here,

“The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man.” – (The Black Gate Opens, Return of the King) [My bold]

We know that Tolkien does not use his words lightly, a rather powerful quote to support this comes from letter #131, to Milton Waldman,

“Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered. And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the features, incidents, and chapters has been laboriously pondered.” – (Letter #131)

Thus his choice of the word ‘living’ can only mean one thing, that he was still taking breath and was in no need of support of any sort of ‘magic’ to sustain him. The Dark Tower ’first rose again’ in TA 2951. At the point of this conversation in the War we are at TA 3019 - a difference of 68 years. The Average lifespan of the Heirs of Elendil from HoME 12 Chapter V11, then the Northern Line we have as 182 years and the Southern Line as 219 years.

So the Mouth of Sauron at his oldest if we are to take him as the purest of blood, he would live to be 219. However if we take the average lifespan of the Stewards who ruled from the time the Dark Tower was rebuilt then we get 102.
Thus we must decide upon an age in which he entered the service of Sauron, bearing in mind that it was by his ‘cunning’ that he was promoted.

“…because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron.’” – (The Black Gate Opens, Return of the King)

Therefore we could have him as quite young. The above quote also I think proves the fact that if he meant for the Witch King to be a Lieutenant then he would have said though. Therefore I have to disagree with your point littlemanpoet that he was, and that they were of equal rank.

I am in the agreement with Boromir88 and others who believe that the Mouth of Sauron was higher in rank. Lieutenant of Barad-dur isn’t some fancy foppish title, we have specific textual evidence that he had risen in Sauron’s favour, none so for the Witch King, and thus was of higher rank.

“But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.’ Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.” – (The Black Gate Opens, Return of the King)

Sauron would have had the Mouth in place of Saruman not the Witch King, who is described in letter #246 being “reduced to impotence” after the War. I say this because if Sauron were to repossess the One Ring, it would be while Sam and Frodo were in Mordor, after and perhaps during the battle at the Black Gate. Perhaps I am fixing the evidence to fit my theory…

Moving onto who was more powerful, then those who stated that it was the Witch King because he had command of the armies, would historically be correct. Roman generals popular with the armies were feared by the Senate, for they could seize control should they wish it.

Originally posted by littlemanpoet

“The Witchking is single-minded, having no more self-will (though he is self-conscious enough to understand the prophecy about himself), and is therefore a very effective tool.”

Therein lies the answer, he was less powerful than the Mouth of Sauron because of his lack of ambition. Drawing again from one of my above quotes;

“He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.” – (The Black Gate Opens, Return of the King)

The Witch King would have remained as the ‘go getter’ for Sauron. Although I concede there is an example that distorts both the ‘rank’ and ‘power’ struggle we are contending with. The Witch King was ruler of Angmar once.

B(i)c) – Elves

I am in agreement with Boromir88’s point that Elves had ‘magic’ inherently. They were Children of Iluvatar and therefore in essence created from the greatest feat of ‘magic’ which was the creation of Middle Earth. Also it is said that the Elves learned from Sauron as we see the Mouth of Sauron had, thus it would seem Tolkien’s point in letter #155 is contradicted.

““Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by 'lore' or spells;..” – (Letter #155)

However it was not sent, at least not this portion of the text and thus perhaps his mind was changed as it ever was during the creation of LoTR.

"The particular branch of the High-Elves concerned, the Noldor or Loremasters, were always on the side of 'science and technology', as we should call it: they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gil-galad and Elrond. The particular 'desire' of the Eregion Elves - an 'allegory' if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices - is also symbolised by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.” – (Letter #153)

There are other examples of the ‘magic’ used by Elves,

“'By the arts of Felagund their own forms and faces were changed into the likeness of orcs; and thus disguised they came far upon their northward road,'” - (Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion)

Alas, I have quoted from the Silmarillion, a book which for me is not always solid proof, despite Tolkien stating that “my heart is in the Silmarillion”, and so I am loath to reject its evidence at times. We can also consider Galadriel’s mirror as a form of ‘magic’. And is a perfect example of ‘magic’ being inherent.

Galadriel’s' mirror cannot exist without the presence of Galadriel ergo it is her 'magic' that creates it. It is her breath that activates it. Unlike the One it has no objective existence of its own- it is recreated each time she pours water and breathes on it.

"'With water from the stream Galadriel filled the basin to the brim, and breathed on it, and when the water was still again she spoke.” Here is the Mirror of Galadriel", she said. 'I have brought you here so that you may look into it if you will." (Fellowship of the Ring -The Mirror of Galadriel)

Galadriel's breath is that which brings the Mirror to life.

Gandalf states while contemplating the Elvish word that would open the Gates of Moria;

"I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose." (Fellowship of the Ring, A Journey in the Dark)

It is clear that the ‘Firstborn’ possessed something, and so I would add could Men, or those descended from Elves. Yet I would explore this issue in the next section.

B(i)d) – Men

The construction of Orthanc was overseen by men, and there is the following quote;

“Many of the Ents were hurling themselves against the Orthanc-rock; but that defeated them. It is very smooth and hard. Some wizardry is in it, perhaps, older and stronger than Saruman's. Anyway they could not get a grip on it, or make a crack in it; and they were bruising and wounding themselves against it.” - (The Two Towers, Chapter 8, The Road to Isengard) [My bold]

The quote speaks for itself, though it is surprising to see the suggestion of something greater in power than Saruman. Then there are the works from Westernesse that have already been highlighted;

“So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.” - (Return of the King, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields)

Again the quote from Gandalf,

"I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose." (FotR, A Journey in the Dark)

And the existence of Beorn,

"Though a skin-changer and no doubt a but of a magician, Beorn was a Man." – (Letter #144)

So can we not safely say that Men may obtain this ‘magic’ and could not the knowledge be handed down through the generations?

C)(i) – First Idea

In this section I would just like to question a few things that might put a new angle on the discussion,

I believe that ‘magic’ could be obtained by all despite the following use of the text by Raynor,

“Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien” – (Letter #155)

I disagree with this point that Men were unable to learn it, and consequently agreeing with Boromir88 that they could. So into the open I throw this idea ‘magic’ is the same or closely related to ‘machinery’.

"The basic motive for magia - quite apart from any philosophic consideration of how it would work - is immediacy: speed, reduction of labour, and reduction also to a minimum (or vanishing point) of the gap in time between the idea or desire and the result or effect." (Letter #155) [My bold]

I believe the above quotes show that ‘machinery’ is a form of ‘magic’. My emphasis reflects upon the modern day technique of rationalisation through the implementation of ‘machinery’ to replace workers.

"But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods)." - (Letter #131)

The act of creating something through craft that would ‘produce’ ‘magic’ was this ‘machinery’ they had almost fallen too, ‘machinery’ not literally, but in the sense of rationalisation. The Rings of Power were to be used as we all know as aids for the Elves to preserve their world around them.

C(ii) – Idea Two

Magic was becoming far less important in Middle Earth as the years progressed. The age of his magic is over, this is accepted by Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond, and most of their kind, which is why they cross Over the Sea.
Gandalf says to Aragorn:

“‘The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved much must now pass away, and the power of the Three Rings also is ended. And all the lands that you see, and most of those that lie round about them, shall be dwelling s of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.'” - (Return of the King, The Steward and the King) [My bold]

The comment that “the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.” has already been anticipated -and accepted, by both Elrond and Glorfindel:

“‘But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief. Yet all the Elves are willing to endure this chance'; said Glofindel, ‘if by it the power of Sauron may be broken, and the fear of his dominion taken away for ever.'” - (Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond)

And Galadriel too:

“‘Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and be forgotten…Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron; for they know him now.'” - (Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel)

And closure for the Third Age is finally given in these words,

“‘Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on; for the Third Age was over, and the Days of the Rings were passed, and an end was come of the story and the song of those times.'” – (Return of the King, The Grey Havens)

Thus the interesting observation that ‘song’ is ‘magic’, for as I have already said it was ‘song’ that created Middle Earth. Spell = chant = enchantment = Latin. incantare (to sing) = chant = song.

“At least part of the magic that they wield for the good or evil of man is power to play on the desires of his body and his heart.” - (On fairy-stories)

And the following definitions of Spell, lead us to enchantment, which plays on the heart. Thus ‘magic’ is finally lost, shown in the words,

“…an end was come of the story and the song of those times.'” – (Return of the King, The Grey Havens)

It is ‘song’ that Tom Bombadil uses as ‘magic’

“I’ll freeze his marrow cold, if he don’t behave himself. I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Old Man Willow!’” (Chapter Six, The Old Forest)