Thread: Sorcery
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Old 10-08-2006, 05:15 PM   #8
Boromir88
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So I would have to disagree with your suggestion, Boromir. Saruman did not use evil spirits for the explosions, as far as we know; at least, the text of LotR doesn't suggest it in any way.
I don't think I suggested that he did. I suggested that he used magia to increase the speed and efficiency of blasting through the wall. I'm not familiar with the definition of sorcery that radagastly gives...to me that sounds more like necromancy, hence the Necromancer who is someone who had control over the dead/spirits.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but sorcery to me was thought of as the offensive side of magic or the destructive. Control over the spirits/dead would be a form of sorcery, but not all sorcery needs to deal with dead spirits. Where Artistic side is more defensive, preservation, protection, and healing.

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So the Mouth of Sauron is 'into' sorcery, for he is apparently using the power of evil spirits to prolong his life far beyond that of his fellow humans; but he, unlike the ringwraiths, is not undead.~lmp
I don't think there's any reason to believe that the Mouth of Sauron was particularly that old, or prolonging his life at all:
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And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again~The Black Gate Opens
This would be the T.A. 2951:
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Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dūr. Gollum turns towards Mordor. Sauron sends three of the Nazgūl to reoccupy Dol Guldur.~Appendix B; Chronology of the West Lands, The Third Age.
This would mean he would have been in Sauron's service (by the time of the War of the Ring) for about 70 years. There is no reason to assume then that the Mouth had an unreasonable lifespan, he probably would have been nearing 100 (or close to that age) by the time we are talking about, which for a Numenorean wouldn't be an abnormal age.

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If he was ever in Sauron's favour & learned great sorcery from him, was he even higher in rank in Mordor than the Witch-King?~Mansun
In terms of power, I don't know if a definitive answer can be reached. The Witch-King was granted extra powers by Sauron at the battle of Pelennor Fields, and was the commander of his armies. The Mouth of Sauron, had learned Sorcery, but sadly that's all we know, we don't see exactly how powerful he is, or what his capabilities are.

In terms of rank, the Mouth of Sauron was surely higher. He was Sauron's messenger, herald, and the Lieutenant of Barad-dur, where the Witch-King commanded Sauron's army. We are told the Mouth of Sauron was more cruel than any orc, and knew Sauron's mind better than anyone else. As Sauron's ambassador, representative, herald...however you want to put it, this would surely put him above the Witch-King in terms of rank. I've argued the possibility that if Sauron was successful in his domination of Middle-earth, he would have booted Saruman from Orthanc and placed in the Mouth in charge. Sauron knew Saruman's plans of betraying him, and was only using Saruman to serve his own purposes. The Mouth was somebody it seemed that Sauron trusted more than anyone else. Plus Sauron loved order and co-ordination:
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...it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.~Morgoth's Ring
So, I wouldn't doubt it if Sauron dominion became complete, he would have booted Saruman and place the Mouth of Sauron to rule over Orthanc (of course still being the supreme Ruler...much like the Melkor and Sauron relationship).
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Last edited by Boromir88; 10-08-2006 at 07:14 PM.
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