[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

There is not just unexpected deliverance in Tolkien’s theory, but an accompanying recognition of imperfection of the world, of evil, of doom. Frodo accepts his defeat before Gollem becomes the agent of the deliverance, just as Gawin submits to his fate, not expecting reprieve at the hands of the Green Knight. It is not simply that something redeems the sorry or perilous state of the hero, but that the hero must come to accept his final defeat, this tragedy or catastrophe, before he will be for the time being delivered from it.

So the hero must utterly fail and recognize his/her failure in order for the 'sudden turn' to be the eucatastrophe as described by Tolkien. I think you are right. This definitely clarifies the concept, and limits its application to LotR as well as other fairy tales/myths. Are there other myths/fairy tales that exhibit eucatastrophe, whether ancient (Beowulf, Gawain) or modern (Out of the Silent Planet, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc.)?

Originally Posted by Lal

...the tale Tolkien created was not an amoral one, and it is possibly due to his wish to create a myth that was "purged of the gross", as to be honest, Faerie Tale is not about redemption or hope or joy or any of those things, its about danger, wicked fun, dreams, bodily fluids and death.

First, regarding the latter (not underlined) part: is this your opinion, or do you have evidence for this that contradicts Tolkien's own statement that fairy stories are, at their highest and best, about redemption and hope and joy? Regardless, it seems reductionist.

Second, regarding the underlined section, I think you are right that Tolkien wrote a moral fairy tale in because he wanted to create a myth that was "purged of the gross"; but why did he want it 'purged of the gross'? To make it moral? That would be circular reasoning, so there has to be a separate reason outside either of them. Is it, perhaps, to have made LotR 'consciously Catholic in the revision'?

Originally Posted by Lal

Ungoliant most defintely is ambiguous...

But not morally so. By the way, I've read the Spider thread and the theory built thereon such that Ungoliant cannot be a Maia, and may in fact be co-eval with Iluvatar, seems extremely weak.