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Lalwendë · 09-24-2006, 08:05 AM

I think I might have posted on this topic before - maybe in the thread Lush started (can't remember the title, it was something like "Garrr, descent into Hell"). I've always found it striking that in Arda Hell is on Earth, not in another place like Norse, Christian, Judaic and Islamic versions. This is quite Humanist and Modernist, that people create their own Hells; possibly Tolkien saw enough in his own lifetime that would cause him to think it could be a very real place on Earth. That was brought home again to me last Sunday when we listened to the reading at Tolkien's graveside about the horrors he saw in the trenches, of dead men's faces staring up out of the mud, and of having to go on living, surviving in that place. He also lived in a world that rapidly revealed unimaginable horrors such as the Nazi death camps, Stalin's purges, Hiroshima/Nagasaki and the Dresden firestorms.

He does translate Hell into a very real, physical place, not a place to which people go after death. And this continues into the Third Age with the Witch King's chilling words to Eowyn - we get the sense that there is a real place of torture she could be taken to, while alive. The only sense of a 'supernatural' Hell is when Saruman is killed and the Valar turn him away (like Meister Eckhart's ideas of God only being aware of the Good), but for mortals there is no supernatural Hell yet there is a 'Heaven' outside the world.

We don't know what this is like and we can only presume that all go there. I wonder if this bears any resemblance to Purgatory? Either way, there seems to be no concept of any 'sifting' once the souls get there. Perhaps it's like Pullman's Land Of The Dead, a place where all go? Though I'm sure Tolkien wouldn't make such a miserable place as Pullman imagined! We know Elves could end up like this if they 'go bad' as they never get reincarnated once in the Halls of Mandos; they end up in this 'Purgatory/Land of the Dead' like place for ever. There's nothing similar for mortals.

We've no way of telling if this is what Tolkien thought himself (and I would not be surprised looking at what he saw as the world changed from a safe place to a place of unimaginable, unpredictable horror) or if this was a literary choice he made for the world he created where evil was in the very fabric (so in a logical sense Hell would be built in and not outside). Whatever, we will never be able to know that, but this is where Tolkien is resolutely Modern.

09-24-2006, 08:05 AM	#32
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I think I might have posted on this topic before - maybe in the thread Lush started (can't remember the title, it was something like "Garrr, descent into Hell"). I've always found it striking that in Arda Hell is on Earth, not in another place like Norse, Christian, Judaic and Islamic versions. This is quite Humanist and Modernist, that people create their own Hells; possibly Tolkien saw enough in his own lifetime that would cause him to think it could be a very real place on Earth. That was brought home again to me last Sunday when we listened to the reading at Tolkien's graveside about the horrors he saw in the trenches, of dead men's faces staring up out of the mud, and of having to go on living, surviving in that place. He also lived in a world that rapidly revealed unimaginable horrors such as the Nazi death camps, Stalin's purges, Hiroshima/Nagasaki and the Dresden firestorms. He does translate Hell into a very real, physical place, not a place to which people go after death. And this continues into the Third Age with the Witch King's chilling words to Eowyn - we get the sense that there is a real place of torture she could be taken to, while alive. The only sense of a 'supernatural' Hell is when Saruman is killed and the Valar turn him away (like Meister Eckhart's ideas of God only being aware of the Good), but for mortals there is no supernatural Hell yet there is a 'Heaven' outside the world. We don't know what this is like and we can only presume that all go there. I wonder if this bears any resemblance to Purgatory? Either way, there seems to be no concept of any 'sifting' once the souls get there. Perhaps it's like Pullman's Land Of The Dead, a place where all go? Though I'm sure Tolkien wouldn't make such a miserable place as Pullman imagined! We know Elves could end up like this if they 'go bad' as they never get reincarnated once in the Halls of Mandos; they end up in this 'Purgatory/Land of the Dead' like place for ever. There's nothing similar for mortals. We've no way of telling if this is what Tolkien thought himself (and I would not be surprised looking at what he saw as the world changed from a safe place to a place of unimaginable, unpredictable horror) or if this was a literary choice he made for the world he created where evil was in the very fabric (so in a logical sense Hell would be built in and not outside). Whatever, we will never be able to know that, but this is where Tolkien is resolutely Modern. __________________ Gordon's alive!