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Old 09-23-2006, 11:49 AM   #27
littlemanpoet
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Join Date: Jan 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lal
Should [Tolkien] have preserved these folk tales if he truly wished to dedicate his work to England?
Basically it seems that you're asking if Tolkien should have behaved more like a librarian than the artist he was. So I say 'no'.

Just for the record, I agree with Lal and davem and not with Saurreg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lal
What does the following mean in the context of the interweaving of English legends/folklore into the legendarium?
Quote:
the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth
It seems to me that what Tolkien is saying is: larger = cosmogonic while lesser = fairy story. I think 'fairy tale' includes Robin Hood. I can imagine that Faramir has analogies to Robin Hood that might have been instinctively present in the mind of Tolkien. It's also interesting to me that Gondor would be Norman and Rohan Saxon, whereas Faramir is the Gondorian Robin Hood to the Haradrim/Sauronish "Sherriff of Nottingham", by analogy. So it's not clean, but doesn't have to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12_30
"Lesser drawing splendour from the large backcloths" to me says "Hobbit" and "LOTR", which draw splendour from Gondolin (Hobbit) & Elrond's wisdom, &c, more thinly; and LOTR, which by the time we get past Elrond's house rests squarely on the legendarium whether the reader is particularly aware of that or not.
I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark
But then, we've also discussed (in various threads) such things as, "Smith of Wootton Major"-- does it draw from the Legendarium? Or does it draw from the same Faerie sources that the Legendarium drew from? It is "lesser" in size, but what exactly does it rest on? What does "Leaf by Niggle" rest on? What does "Farmer Giles" rest on?
I think this is a different discussion altogether because those stories had a different purpose than the Legendarium. That said, the three short stories feel just as English and written by Tolkien as The Hobbit and LotR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark
Are we asking in terms of content-- which is how I initiallly answered a paragraph or three above-- or are we asking in terms of the compost, in which case everything drew on what came before? I often get these two ideas crossed in my own mind.
Both, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark
Even within LOTR, thinking back to the "It Feels Different Near the Shire" thread-- does the Old Forest, and Tom Bombadil, rest on the same thing as, say, Gondolin and Numenor? lmp...?
Perhaps that I'm not English myself renders my opinion inexpert. Still, I've read enough of the literature, background, and even had a visit, which does NOT make me an expert but gives knowledge. Gondolin and Numenor come from Tolkien dreams, but seem to have their sources as much in myth and legend. The Old Forest comes from folklore and Tom Bombadil has a mix of sources to say the least.

But all that seems rather unclear to me. I think it's important to distinguish between what in the legendarium (& LotR) is cosmogonic and what is fairy tale..... if that's even possible.
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