Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Did I [or for that matter, all those who more or less argue on this side of the fence] ever claimed the we can find exclusively Christian virtues in LotR? I am sorry, but your argument is a strawman. More to the point, I think you misunderstood me; I wasn't trying, in that particular post, to prove that this is Christian pity, but that it is a religious feeling, not a "merely" human one.
|
Pinpointing an instance of particular behaviour and then analysing it to say that this marks a parallel with a point in the bible or a tenet of Christian faith is unavoidably 'claiming' it as Christian. And pity isn't a religious feeling, its a cognitive process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
All the time?? I _really_ doubt that. It is really hard to see pity when it is required, let alone when it is safe; to do pity nowadays when it would present a mortal danger represents something very rare, almost unique. More to the point, I would argue that Frodo's pity wasn't singular, he did spare Gollum's life at just one moment - but throughout it all.
|
I agree Frodo's pity wasn't just one instance but a generalised feeling towards Gollum. But I don't agree that pity is lacking in our world, in fact its alive and well, but most of us don't expect anything for it nor make a show of it (we just give the beggar a quid and walk on, help the old lady pick up her dropped shopping bags and continue on our way to work, have a direct debit each month to Amnesty International etc. etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Now that we are at it, I am really curious to see what redempting value is given to pity in Norse myths.
|
Don't know, but Tolkien's inspiration isn't either/either Christian or Norse, it's a lot of things, not least English fairy and folktale, which is filled with instances of pity, usually a lesson where a hero stays his hand filled with pity for the injured wolf (or other scary creature), and later on finds said creature rescues him or turns out to be a princess etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
I disagre; in the letters, Tolkien noted that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #297
The Fall of Man is in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future.
|
So, to a point, this does indicate that LotR is at a time that is pre-eucatastrophic, as mark (Helen, if I may) pointed.
|
Yet we have to acknowledge that Tolkien doesn't
have The Fall Of Man. Men do not Fall, the world is Fallen before Men even get there. There is no garden of Eden, no serpent, no tree of knowledge. Melkor is the cause and root of evil, not Men. There is no original sin to be saved from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Chris, in his comments, while he does admit that this presents a challenge to Tolkien's desire to present the religious truth only implicitly, also goes on to say that:
An extension; not parody, not allegory
|
Christopher's thoughts, not his
father's, which were as I stated distinctly uncomfortable with the implied parody of Christianity.