View Single Post
Old 08-18-2006, 08:41 AM   #58
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
Infact, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron generally believed the Ring could be used to overthrow the Dark Lord. Although we cannot be absolutely certain of this, one would have to agree that it would be likely that Sauron could be overthrown by another power with the Ring. Aside from this being Sauron's great fear, none of the above characters speak of there being a chance that by wielding the Ring they would likely as not be fooled by the lure of the Ring's power to such an extent that they would just end up succumbing to Sauron in one way or other. The fear amongst these characters was that ''another Sauron'' would form, rather than the Ring wielder entering the service of the Darklord after being corrupted by the Ring.
All of this is still just talking about what characters "knew."
And the Ring was certainly eager to betray everybody else, why couldn't it betray one of them?

Quote:
If Sauron did know that the Ring could not be used against him, surely he would have bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, even after the initial attempt by the Nine Black Riders had failed? He would have already known that Mordor forces were far too strong for Gondor & Rohan, & could afford to use his armies to lure the Ring to him again, surely his uttermost desire above all others.
Isn't that what he did, in a way?

Quote:
The only other way that things could be explained is if Sauron didn't know whether his Ring could be used against him, but judging by his choices & actions it seems as though he thought it likely that he could be defeated if it were used against him.
I'm afraid you're not making a whole lot of sense here. At first you say that if Sauron thought the Ring was no threat to him then he would have spent more time hunting it but then you say he would have tried to use his armies to get the Ring back. Considering that he thought Gandalf or Aragorn had the Ring (which is a bizarre thing for him to think because if he thought they were going to try and master it, you'd think he'd believe he'd have sensed their efforts to do so) didn't he sort of use his armies to try and get the Ring back? Which is it you are arguing for?

Quote:
It would break the 'rapport' and Sauron would most of his power and be diminished to a spirit incapable of reforming again. Then Lalwende brings up a good point also, can one truly master the Ring? Because even if you get rid of Sauron for good, Sauron's work will continue, as the person who mastered the Ring will in time become another Dark Lord.
A) It seems to me that you would have to master the Ring in order to defeat Sauron by this method. If you don’t the Ring will betray you to Sauron because the Ring would not have forgotten who it really belonged to.

Also…

Quote:
If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.
It seems that mastering the Ring is part and parcel of utterly breaking Sauron.

B) This is another reason why the Wise didn’t consider trying this to be a viable alternative.

Quote:
I think wielding goes more along the lines of using the Ring and gathering a large army to go and overthrow Sauron.
I have to admit that I’ve never particularly understood how the Ring was especially helpful in this regard. It can’t create soldiers out of thin air and how does it entice people to follow someone else to their death they know little about and have no history of loyalty toward.

Quote:
I don't see why he couldn't be defeated without it, in the hands of someone else.

-and-

Sauron would be able to return, as the Ring's powers would still exist and be tied to Sauron.
Theoretically (ignoring the military incapacity of the West for this line of thought, even though I think this is a big part of the reason why the Ring had to be mastered in order for Sauon to be defeated in this way) it might be possible to militarily defeat Sauron. However, I agree that Sauron would not be broken and that he would come back. And I’m not sure the Ring would be exactly helpful in this enterprise. I think it would be apt for betrayal.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote