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Old 08-13-2006, 09:24 PM   #15
Boromir88
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Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
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White Tree

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Of course they had no body, they were dead. However, they did have something, or were somthing more than ordinary spirits, seeing as how they could be seen, and they were damned people, not people who simply croaked. They were Middle-Earth's only ghosts, spirits that were tied to the living world, and little is known about them.
But there is no different forms of spirits...a spirit has no body, and with no body, you can not touch or feel something that is tangible. I don't get what it's so hard about...if Sauron, WK, and Saruman, aren't good enough for you, how about these other two examples. This first one is Glaurung and Nienor where we are told about Glaurung's eyes:


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'they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master'~The Grey Annals: The War of the Jewels
Morgoth had put a 'fell spirit' in Glaurung's body. And this is also something Sauron did with wolves, inhabitting spirits into wolf bodies. Because, in order to cause any sort of actual harm a spirit must have a body. You have not shown why the Dead Army would be any different.

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That curse sure wasn't sweet. All I was saying was that the curse was specific. If the curse stated it could be broken with combat, combat would break it. Simple.
But, there is no 'special terms' of the curse. Isildur just says in order for them to rest, they have to fulfill their oath to Gondor. Obviously, Aragorn thought they did this when they scared the Corsairs off the ship. And as luthien points out this is a form of killing. The Corsairs were filled with madness because of the Dead Army so they jumped, and died. And Aragorn believed that this fulfilled their oath.

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Like I said, of course a curse isn't sweet, and Isildur's curse was easily broken. It's not that hard to fight for Gondor. Also, Morgoth's curse had no terms of breaking in it, and was a fully damning act. Keep in mind that Morgoth's curse came from Morgoth, who was far more skilled in the cursing department than Isildur.
My point was curses aren't some sort of soft easy fix, which for some reason you have just pulled out this, which makes it seem like Isildur was soft on them:
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If they were expected to fight, then why were they cursed with something that wouldn't let them fight?
It sounds like you're making Isildur sound soft on them. It looks like you're saying Isildur pitied them and when he cursed them saying to lift it they had to fulfill their oath to Gondor, he wouldn't have placed a curse that made them unable to fulfill their pledge. And all I'm trying to say is Isildur could care less whether or not they were able to break the curse, because curses are a strong form of revenge. Isildur wanted to make sure they paid, and could care less if they couldn't break the curse he laid upon them.

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What can someone in Middle-Earth do without a body? They need a body for everything.
May I ask for some proof of this statement?

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Of course they had no body, they were dead. However, they did have something, or were somthing more than ordinary spirits, seeing as how they could be seen, and they were damned people, not people who simply croaked. They were Middle-Earth's only ghosts, spirits that were tied to the living world, and little is known about them.
And again, having no physical body means you can't touch, feel, punch, something that had a form. I was asked to support this, and I think I have given very reasonable (5 to be exact) where in order to fight with a tangible body, a spirit must have a form of it's own. Why is the Dead Army any different? You say because they were damned? So what, they had no body, show me where something without a body could hurt a being that did.

It just so happens that the Dead Army were 'barely visible' ghosts whoever said that they were the only ones?
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Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless.~Letter 210
This is Tolkien talking about the Nazgul's power of fear, eventhough the Nazgul weren't ghosts, I think it is the same type of fear the Dead Army inspired into the Corsairs. It was a 'ghost-like' fear. So, again, whoever said that the Dead Army were the only ghosts around town that could be seen? (And mind you we are told they were 'barely visible'.)

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Overall, the undead army was a special case which we don't have much info on, so all we can do is speculate. Your opinion is equal to mine. If anything, we should be talking about how a man of Numenor pulled a curse out of his rear.
If that's your opinion, that's ok by me, you're entitled to it. I was asked to provide proof for me saying that the King of the Dead could not have killed the Witch-King, and I've done so. If it's your opinion that he could, that's your opinion...but it does help if you can support it.
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