[Child of the 7th Age]

Littlemanpoet

....there are aspects of gender that are peculiar to fantasy & romance that are not readily understandable and must be interpreted by men to women, and probably vice versa (it's just that I am familiar with my gender only).

I did understand what you were saying. I just don't agree. Please excuse me if I didn't frame my response more strictly in terms of fantasy and romance. A full fledged rebuttal of this point would require an extended discussion covering everything from the Arthurian legend to Pullman and other modern authors, but that is way outside the focus of the Downs so I won't be tempted.

There are so many styles of fantasy hailing from such diverse lands, so many different ways to approach the genre, that I truly believe it is impossible to generalize as you have done. The only way to do that is to confine your discussion to one or two types and state that these types are the only legitimate fantasy that exists. If you define the genre very strictly, I might be able to agree with your statement in relation to certain types of fantasy. But I am not willing to exclude other styles and types from an overall consideration of fantasy.

But let me address one point that does relate strictly to Tolkien:

Most of his women are idealizations. An Elf is by definition an idealization, which includes Luthien, Arwen, and Galadriel. Eowyn is not an idealization; but she is masculinized in that she is a warrior, and a hero-worshipper (Aragorn); she idealizes. Rosy is one of the few women in LotR that are not idealized; she shouldn't be, for she is intended for Sam the gardener. Lobelia is enough of a villainess that she does not fit the idealization pattern. Melian is not only an Elf, but a Valar! Ioreth is a foil for Aragorn.

My favorite woman in Tolkien is none of these. It is Andreth. Andreth is not "ideal". Despite the fact that she loves an Elf, she comes across as the opposite of ideal: there is a sharp edge in her grieving that goes beyond romance. This is not the romantic woman scorned. This is a living and breathing older woman who has lived with sadness many years. And she is not a mere foil for Finrod as Ioreth may be said to be for Aragorn. She is a thinking and arguing character who appears as Finrod's equal, albeit coming from a very different background and perspective. I don't think she fits the model of "idealization" you are putting forward. And Tolkien gave pages and pages to her depiction. It was CT's choice to leave her out of the Silm, not his father's.

I would even disagree about Eowyn. Eowyn is a hero worshipper and therefore idealizes? But this is a trait that Tolkien never ties to gender. How different is Gimli's response to Galadriel, or even Frodo's feeling when he meets Goldberry? No, the men didn't expect to "marry" the objects of their worship because of obvious differences in station, but in all three cases their feelings are akin to what you would dub "hero worship". That trait or feeling is as typical of men as of women.

There are a great many characters whom Tolkien idealizes, and they are not all women. Unfriendly critics have castigated Tolkien again and again because of this. And though I don't agree with their overall assessment, there is some truth in the accusation. There is an element of idealization underlying many of Tolkien's characters, male and female. If Tolkien "fell in love" with Galadriel, he also "fell in love" with Faramir , though in a different way. It is clearly the character whom he uses to voice his own feelings and beliefs. This is made even clearer in the Letters. Idealization is part of many characters; it's not just the women.

Littlemanpoet -- Yes, I don't think that anyone could deny Tolkien does idealize many of his women. But personally I would not include Eowyn in that group, and there are other characters from Silm and HoMe like Andreth who just don't fit the mold. Moreover, devices like idealization and hero worship also cut across gender lines, touching more than one type of character. I just don't see the ironclad gender wall that you do within the fantasy genre as a whole. Good male writers of fantasy can write believable female characters, and vice versa.

Ang .... "perfect, invincible, silent". Almost sounds like a description of Aragorn at certain points in the book and of several male characters I know in Silm! But that's my point. Tolkien uses some of these same devices in depicting both men and women. Yes, Luthien is clearly an idealized Edith, but so too is Beren idealized.