[Boromir88]

Wow, what some great ideas and thoughts being tossed around here, wonderful thread.

First off to Folwren, I catch everything...sooner or later (and now it's often later) I catch everything.

Mathew, nice thread idea, and I would first like to say that it's not so clear cut as some would like to think. Just because Tolkien happened to think Sam the "chief hero" doesn't mean he necessarily is. There is a difference between Tolkien the author/omniscient narrator and Tolkien the reader/spectator. (Especially in his letters) Sometimes it's a little hard to spot, but the easiest ones is when he comes right out and says "I think..." then you know he's sitting back more, looking at it from a reader's perspective, instead of being our all knowning author. I at least feel the same way about Tolkien's thoughts on Sam. It's him sitting back sharing his thoughts from a reader's perspective, he is the character Tolkien most connected with as the "chief hero" and being "bilbo-esque."

It's certainly hard and there's a lot of things to consider. There's no doubt in my mind both are heroes. But, I think they are two different kind of heroes.

Frodo to me seems more of the tragic hero of the story, and for that because he ends the way he does, I sympathize for him, but it's not what you would expect from a "chief hero." Frodo, I think, shows the most courage of anyone in the entire story. He's the one who steps up to the plate and puts the fate of Middle-earth on his shoulders. He's the one who as Wiscott says makes that ultimate sacrifice. He takes on an impossible task, that could not be completed by anyone on Middle-earth, but he sacrifices himself for the good of Middle-earth. Here are actually Tolkien's thoughts on Frodo as a hero:

Frodo indeed ‘failed’ as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. I do not say ‘simple minds’ with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement (since it is Present in the Divine nature). In its highest exercise it belongs to God. For finite judges of imperfect knowledge it must lead to the use of two different scales of ‘morality’. To ourselves we must present the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength (+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could achieve. To others, in any case of which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a scale tempered by ‘mercy’: that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias inevitable in judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of another's strength and weigh this against the force of particular circumstances.*

I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.

We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our soul-body structure in either action or endurance. Moral failure can only be asserted, I think, when a man's effort or endurance falls short of his limits, and the blame decreases as that limit is closer approached.~Letter 246

Again, I think this is Tolkien looking as a reader, and certainly one may not see Frodo as a "hero." It's all up to what your expectations are, what your definition of a hero is, and can it be supported. (Reminds me of horrendous reference sheets in college ). What's interesting here is this is basically all of Tolkien's opinion. What he feels as a hero, what he thinks of "morality," and how that all weighs in.

I'd like to point out Pity and Mercy, big themes throughout the book. Wiscott brought up sacrifice, but also let's not forget Frodo's pity...pity for Gollum. Gollum was not a completely lost character, he still had a "corner of his mind" that was not corrupted. What's interesting is to show that Gollum is not completely lost yet, is that he can still remember his name...he remembers Smeagol, where The Mouth of Sauron was noted as not being able to remember his true name. (Same with the unnamed Ringwraiths) The Mouth was completely enthralled into Sauron's service, he had no "corner" left, where Gollum still had that hope. And Frodo's pity was about to save him. I want to point out a key moment in the books. Where Frodo had nearly gotten through to Gollum, but it was actually Sam who mistakes Gollum's "pawing at Frodo," and naturally protects his master. However, Sam ends up causing more harm then good as now the "Smeagol" is completely gone and he goes beyond redemption. Tolkien felt like this and the cock crow when Rohan arrived were the most touching moments to him. For, it doesn't mean that Sam is mean or ill-intended, but it shows that even the best of people try to help too much, but end up causing harm that they just didn't anticipate and didn't intend to do.

Now, again it's whether you happen to agree with Tolkien's assessment of a "hero" or not. For me, Frodo does not fit the "chief hero" he fits more into the tragic hero. He gives it all he's got, he gets the Ring to the one place where it can be destroyed. He can't get it himself destroyed, but this was said to be impossible for anyone to resist the ring's power at that one "maximum point" to cast it into Mount Doom or claim it (Letter 183). I like to put it in a bit of a rhyme, Frodo failed the personal test, but he did not fail the quest. The quest was to destroy the ring, and the Ring was destroyed. Frodo personally did not drop it in, but he got it to Mount Doom to where it could be destroyed. I'd also like to note Frodo being the tragic hero, because he becomes completely enthralled to the Ring. He falls completely to the Ring and the Ring controls him. This is what Shippey speculate in Tolkien- The Author, one view in which I happen to agree with.

Before entereing the Sammath Naur:

”No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.”

It all goes back to the Gollum thing I mentioned earlier. Gollum still at one time had a bit of Smeagol left, he had a hope, he had memories of his name and his passed life. He Frodo is completely losing these memories, he loses everything except for of couse the Ring.

The suddenly as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

"Begone and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."~Mount Doom

This is through Sam's eyes, as Frodo is unable to feel pity for Gollum, he is now "untouchable by pity." Frodo has clearly changed. And what Tom Shippey suggests is that Frodo has completely lost himself to the Ring. It's the Ring that speaks those words of "throw me into the Fire of Doom." For prior, Frodo had not had the strength to do it, now he suddenly has this strength. But it's actually the Ring driving Frodo to Mount Doom, for there is it's "maximum point of power," and it can get complete hold and domination over Frodo, to the final point where he claims the Ring as his own.

Frodo is a character that has many heroic qualities. He shows more courage than anyone else, he truly gives it everything that he has, and the Ring did get destroyed after all. However, Frodo to me this makes him a tragic hero. He loses himself completely to the Ring and he fails as a hero, despite the fact that he used everything that he had.